[sporky11]

Hello.

I bought some Gfci to replace 3 receptacles in my kitchen above the counter. While getting ready to see what was going on in each of the 3 receptacles, i started turning off breakers to see which circuit they were on. Much to my surprise, i had to turn off 4 breakers at the panel to cut the power to 3 kitchen plugs, all within 2 ft of each other. How is this even possible? Can i even install the gfci receptacles in such a configuration? i will probably call an electrician, but would like to understand whats going on and if these receptacles be swapped out for the gfci's. thanks in advance...

 

[Speedy Petey]

Canada?

Sounds like split-wired receptacles to me.

 

[sporky11]

yes Canada, Vancouver, 40 year old concrete apartment

 

[darren]

Leave it as is, this is how it was done up until a few years ago. You don't need to upgrade to GFI, you can but you still won't meet current code and you will lose a couple of circuits on your counter.

When you say you turned off 4 breakers, were these all individual breakers or were some tied together with a handle tie. If they are all individual, that will need to be corrected. Counter plugs should be on a two pole breaker for you can't have half the plug on and half the plug off. Will also need to make sure that each circuit is on a different phase in the panel to avoid overloading the neutral.

 

[sporky11]

Leave it as is, this is how it was done up until a few years ago. You don't need to upgrade to GFI, you can but you still won't meet current code and you will lose a couple of circuits on your counter.

Thx Darren, yeah i was thinking that something would need to give in order to install the gfci's. i installed a gfci kit in the bathroom yesterday, that replaced one of those old razor plugs. I thought the bathroom was going to be the hard part....boy was I wrong!

 

[sporky11]

Leave it as is, this is how it was done up until a few years ago. You don't need to upgrade to GFI, you can but you still won't meet current code and you will lose a couple of circuits on your counter.

When you say you turned off 4 breakers, were these all individual breakers or were some tied together with a handle tie. If they are all individual, that will need to be corrected. Counter plugs should be on a two pole breaker for you can't have half the plug on and half the plug off. Will also need to make sure that each circuit is on a different phase in the panel to avoid overloading the neutral.

These were 4 single breakers.

 

[AdamBNYC]

So there are 2 outlets per receptical. I've seen sometimes, especially in kitchens they will split a single receptical between two breakers. They do this by cutting the connection between the top and bottom outlets. This way you have a receptical that can handle more load. If split like this, you get 15amps per top and bottom.

So if you plugged a microwave into the upper and toaster into the lower and ran them both at the same time, you will not trip the breaker. If both outlets were on single breaker and you tried what I mentioned, you would most probably trip the breaker.

 

[AdamBNYC]

Kinda what I was saying

 

[sporky11]

So there are 2 outlets per receptical. I've seen sometimes, especially in kitchens they will split a single receptical between two breakers. They do this by cutting the connection between the top and bottom outlets. This way you have a receptical that can handle more load. If split like this, you get 15amps per top and bottom.

So if you plugged a microwave into the upper and toaster into the lower and ran them both at the same time, you will not trip the breaker. If both outlets were on single breaker and you tried what I mentioned, you would most probably trip the breaker.

Thx Adam, that sounds about right. These kitchen receptacle circuits have not changed in 40 years...only new receptacles were put in awhile back. All work fine as is, but don't really use the ones on either side of the sink. Have used a micro and another appliance before without tripping the breaker.

 

[joed]

Sounds like split wired receptacles. The four breakers should have been two double poles. It was the standard install for kitchen counter receptacles up until 2008 when GFCI requirements were introduced. If you want to install GFCI you will need to buy double pole GFCI breakers. When you see the cost you might change your mind.

Under current code only receptacles within 1meter of the sink need to be GFCI.
You are grandfathered and do not need to change them unless you want to.

 

[sporky11]

Sounds like split wired receptacles. The four breakers should have been two double poles. It was the standard install for kitchen counter receptacles up until 2008 when GFCI requirements were introduced. If you want to install GFCI you will need to buy double pole GFCI breakers. When you see the cost you might change your mind.

Under current code only receptacles within 1meter of the sink need to be GFCI.
You are grandfathered and do not need to change them unless you want to.

Thx Joe for your reply. I can imagine the cost of those double pole gfci breakers. Thinking that I may just leave things as is for now. Lots of other small reno projects to tackle. Nice to be "Grandfathered" sometimes.

 

[joed]

Those single breakers should be doubles. Not sure if it code allows ties over double poles, but the handles should at least be tied so that both circuits on a receptacle go off together.

 

[darren]

Under current code only receptacles within 1meter of the sink need to be GFCI.
You are grandfathered and do not need to change them unless you want to.

Is it not within 1.5 meter of a sink.

 

[joed]

Is it not within 1.5 meter of a sink.

I think you are correct. They changed it a while back.

 

[darren]

I think you are correct. They changed it a while back.

I go by the arm method. If I stand at the sink and stretch and my arms and can reach the plug then it needs to be GFI protected.

Thinking of GFI, does a 120V sump pump need to be GFI protected? About to go check the code myself, but just in case I don't find something.

 

[joed]

Not in Ontario. Here is direct from the ESA FAQ site.

Question
Does the Ontario Code require ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection for sump pumps or water pressure system pumps in homes?
Answer

No, the Code does not require GFCI protection of these specific appliances unless they are supplied by receptacles that happen to be within 1.5 m (5') of a sink, are installed out of doors and located within 2.5 m (8' 2") of ground level, or are within 3 m (10') of a pool or hot tub, or as required by manufacturer installation instructions.

Rules 26-700, 26-710, 26-714, 68-068.

Ontario Electrical Safety Code 25th Edition/2012