DIY Home Improvement Forum banner
21 - 40 of 43 Posts

·
Usually Confused
Joined
·
7,766 Posts
Well, obviously not. Isn't that what this forum is for?
Look at the wiring diagram I posted (or any other one of your choosing). Setting aside the various symbols and squiggles, following the lines you can see that it is essentially two circuits; one, the heater element, is wired L1-L2 (hot to hot) giving 240v; the other, for all the other stuff, is wired L1-N (line to neutral) giving 120v. This is a basic concept of the North American split-phase power system. If you don't have your head around that, I suggest dinking around with transformers, with their volt-amp ratings and other considerations, is not for you.

I'm curious as to what type of "commercial space" in North America doesn't have access to 240v.

Options: (1) Buy a 120v electric dryer. They are small; or (2) By a gas dryer with a propane kit. You said venting is not available but I'm not sure what that means, so long as you can access the Earth's atmosphere with a reasonable length of 4" pipe you should be good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,434 Posts
Have no 240V outlet. Is a commercial space where getting a 240V into the needed location is not really feasible. Generator is too loud.
Most commercial spaces that have 120V also have either 240V or 208V. 208V will work perfectly fine for this dryer. Just install a common 2-pole breaker (which will tap 2 of the 3 phases) and run a 4-wire cable to a NEMA 14-30 just like you would install a dryer in a home.

On 208V, the heater will run at 75% heat level (computed as sqrt((208/240)) but the heater won't care and the rest of the dryer won't care either.


But, I think the answer is in the inability to get the required Amperage from the 110V line, so providing more details is moot to begin with. Thanks.
Yes. You understand. No such thing as a 120V/60A circuit.

Cost for a transformer would be lower than getting 240V access.

Yes, thank you. Not in the Philippines, but most transformers come with universal 240V outlets.
Oh, you're not talking about those "cheapie" step-up transformers sold online, are you? They aren't safe to begin with, and are incapable of being wired to turn 120V into split-phase 120/240V. It's because of how they're tapped and what they do with neutral.

You would need something like a 5 KVA 120/240V--240/480V transformer (which is often seen on Craigslist in the $100 price range) and an enclosure (often it provides one) and an expert to hook it up properly. You only need about 4 KVA because you only need to synthesize one pole of 120V - you already have the other.


Right, but obviously the 120v components inside the dryer work when you hook it up to a 240v outlet.
No, they work when you hook it up to a 120/240V outlet (or 120/208V outlet). The difference being, these have a neutral wire, so 120V is obtainable.

A backgrounder on 120/240V may help.
 

·
Njuneer
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
The OP never did provide enough info to even help him. Only bread crumbs so there are various solutions being offered with no clue as to what is really going on! I agree, you don't even run just 120V to a home, let alone a commercial building. We don't have enough details. Maybe someone at Home Depot can help him.

my guess is he is in a small, rented space and the landlord won't do anything or let him do anything. I would bail on that sitch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Look at the wiring diagram I posted (or any other one of your choosing). Setting aside the various symbols and squiggles, following the lines you can see that it is essentially two circuits; one, the heater element, is wired L1-L2 (hot to hot) giving 240v; the other, for all the other stuff, is wired L1-N (line to neutral) giving 120v. This is a basic concept of the North American split-phase power system. If you don't have your head around that, I suggest dinking around with transformers, with their volt-amp ratings and other considerations, is not for you.

I'm curious as to what type of "commercial space" in North America doesn't have access to 240v.

Options: (1) Buy a 120v electric dryer. They are small; or (2) By a gas dryer with a propane kit. You said venting is not available but I'm not sure what that means, so long as you can access the Earth's atmosphere with a reasonable length of 4" pipe you should be good.
The issue is not that there is no 240V in the building, the issue is that we are sharing a breaker box with a testing lab that is running 24h and cannot easily turn off the main (yes in theory they can interrupt their operation, but again, I was looking for an easier solution to the problem). The electrician is understandably not interested in working on a breaker box they cannot turn off.

120v electric vent less dryers are too small (besides that we already have the 240v dryer), running gas into the room is going to be costly as well (plus gas dryers need to have access to outside venting, which would add additional cost). Don't really want to do propane because of the hassle of swapping tanks.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Seems that my options are very limited. I will probably bite the bullet and eat the cost for the 240v install, which I would estimate at $1-2k given the length of distance and complexity of the building (as long as I can convince the lab to turn off operations for a day) :) .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Most commercial spaces that have 120V also have either 240V or 208V. 208V will work perfectly fine for this dryer. Just install a common 2-pole breaker (which will tap 2 of the 3 phases) and run a 4-wire cable to a NEMA 14-30 just like you would install a dryer in a home.

On 208V, the heater will run at 75% heat level (computed as sqrt((208/240)) but the heater won't care and the rest of the dryer won't care either.




Yes. You understand. No such thing as a 120V/60A circuit.



Oh, you're not talking about those "cheapie" step-up transformers sold online, are you? They aren't safe to begin with, and are incapable of being wired to turn 120V into split-phase 120/240V. It's because of how they're tapped and what they do with neutral.

You would need something like a 5 KVA 120/240V--240/480V transformer (which is often seen on Craigslist in the $100 price range) and an enclosure (often it provides one) and an expert to hook it up properly. You only need about 4 KVA because you only need to synthesize one pole of 120V - you already have the other.




No, they work when you hook it up to a 120/240V outlet (or 120/208V outlet). The difference being, these have a neutral wire, so 120V is obtainable.

A backgrounder on 120/240V may help.
Yes, I was thinking about something like a Simran AR8000. But that would not work either if the original line amperage is insufficient?
 

·
A "Handy Husband"
Joined
·
13,107 Posts
Most electricians are willing and able to install a branch circuit without interrupting the whole panel.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
Most electricians are willing and able to install a branch circuit without interrupting the whole panel.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
I was hoping the same, but the electrician we had on hand did not want to do that. Maybe I try to find another one who is more adventurous. I was also hoping to avoid the entire permitting process, etc. which currently takes weeks where we are.
 

·
Njuneer
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
Find a different electrician. As well, 95% of the work can be completed without touching the panel. Then shut it down for 10min to make connections. If there is already a space open, they can usually stab that hot without any issue at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,542 Posts
Are you sure it is a simple matter as installing a new branch circuit in an existing panel?

Perhaps a new meter and service is needed for billing purposes, which is beyond the scope of the electrician you first talked to.

If you want to increase your power usage noticeably at this time, the landlord can spring a new utility agreement, such as separate metering where none was before, on you at this time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Are you sure it is a simple matter as installing a new branch circuit in an existing panel?

Perhaps a new meter and service is needed for billing purposes, which is beyond the scope of the electrician you first talked to.

If you want to increase your power usage noticeably at this time, the landlord can spring a new utility agreement, such as separate metering where none was before, on you at this time.
No meter needed. Landlord is not involved. Certainly not sure if this is just a matter of installing a new branch circuit, or what is involved in getting the breaker box ready. I assume they need to pull a new line from the breaker box? Coordinating a day that works for the electrician and a getting the testing lab to agree on us potentially interrupting their day is going to be most challenging.
 

·
Njuneer
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
No meter needed. Landlord is not involved. Certainly not sure if this is just a matter of installing a new branch circuit, or what is involved in getting the breaker box ready. I assume they need to pull a new line from the breaker box....
That is a branch circuit. Done every day. They will set conduit and a receptacle and usually pull wire into the breaker box. Then terminate in panel either hot or offline. It's not complicated. Get another electrician out to discuss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
So, the 4-prong plug on the dryer delivers 240 and 120 separately to the dryer?
Think of it this way:

Neutral = 0V
Hot1 = +120V
Hot2 = -120V

Hot2 - Hot1 = 240V
Hot1(or 2) - Neutral = 120V

Now because it's alternating current it's not quite as simple as the + and - but just know that Hot1 and Hot2 are always opposite to each other in polarity.
That is why you need 4 pins. two hots, neutral, and ground.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Think of it this way:

Neutral = 0V
Hot1 = +120V
Hot2 = -120V

Hot2 - Hot1 = 240V
Hot1(or 2) - Neutral = 120V

Now because it's alternating current it's not quite as simple as the + and - but just know that Hot1 and Hot2 are always opposite to each other in polarity.
That is why you need 4 pins. two hots, neutral, and ground.
I see. Thank you that makes sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,434 Posts
The issue is not that there is no 240V in the building
Because there's 208V instead.

That will be FINE.

the issue is that we are sharing a breaker box with a testing lab that is running 24h and cannot easily turn off the main (yes in theory they can interrupt their operation, but again, I was looking for an easier solution to the problem). The electrician is understandably not interested in working on a breaker box they cannot turn off.
Most electricians are willing and able to install a branch circuit without interrupting the whole panel.
Because most breakers simply plug-on to a panel. It's very, very simple: you a) attach the wire, b) notch the heel of the breaker into the slot, and c) rock the breaker forward to lie it flat and it snaps onto the bus stabs.

If you have a plug-on panel and the electrician refuses to add a circuit live, they're not a licensed electrician.


However, some commercial-side breakers actually do bolt-on to the panel.

With bolt-on panels the concern is more reasonable.
 
21 - 40 of 43 Posts
Top