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Old 03-09-2019, 10:39 AM   #91
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


One thing I also want to say is that humankind may not be the cause of climate change, they are probably contributing to it's accelerated current cycle. Or not. Only the future will tell.

I am a voracious reader, at least I was until my brain injury. I read every chance I could. Even the back of the cereal box until I got a cell phone and a tablet. Mysteries, thrillers, and my favorite since I stole my brothers Stranger in a Strange Land at 12 years old, Science Fiction.

I love science fiction because it makes you think, what if... What if there was a bed for patients who were in a coma that helped prevent bed sores and other problems, that floated the patient on a cushion of gel or something. (Described by Robert A Heinlein in his book "Door into Summer" published in 1957"

Think of how many other things that have come true because they were first thought of in books, movies or stories or articles. Cell Phone, Video Phone, CAD/CAM, Hydroponics, Self Driving Cars.

People have been outspoken against NASA. saying it is a waste of money. But they don't understand all the benefits that have come from it.

First and foremost: What you are reading this on. Computers, Tablets and Smart Phones.
If you have any kind of watch on that is run by a battery, thank NASA.

It is all due to the effort of trying to get more things done in a smaller package. Or Miniaturization and Microminiaturization. Your kids basic calculator has more capabilities than any computer on any Apollo mission. I have attached a sample of memory used on the Apollo missions. It was made to do one thing, built by hand and took months to do.

Without all the effort to make things smaller, the integrated chip from 1959 wouldn't have made much of an impact on modern society as it did. The effort to put instructions on a smaller and smaller piece of silicon gave us CT and MRI, SSD, Plasma Cutters, and the list goes on.

By now you are wondering how this relates to the topic at hand. Well, let me explain.

We have to start somewhere. Like most advancements, things go through a process or phases before it's adopted: "Arthur C. Clarke, who is credited as the father of the communications satellite, once wrote that every revolutionary idea seems
to evoke three stages of reaction which may be summed up by the
phrases (1) itís completely impossible; donít waste my time, (2) itís
possible, but itís not worth doing, (3) I said it was a good idea all along."

We are in Phase 1 and 2. We need to get to Phase 3.

A corolary to this is what Wilbur Wright put it back in 1909, ďThere
are three classes of people: one class thinks the flying machine is
going to do everything, the second class thinks itís going to do
nothing, and the third class gets in the air and sees what it can
do.Ē

You can substitute pretty much anything for "Flying Machine" and get the gist of it.
We have a lot of the first two classes on this thread. We need more of the third class.

America has always been a land of exploration. A land of "What if?" if you will. We seem to have lost that for the most part. We have some extraordinary thinkers and doers here. Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs come to mind at the moment. And then there are the amazing unknowns. The people who look at things and say, what if I add this, tweek that, etc. will it make that tool work better?

The only way to get Solar, in all it's forms is to explore what works and what doesn't, and to see if we can tweek it to work a bit better. Solar roads were thought to be the next big thing. Even with tweeking, they weren't. But, they tried.

What I see that has always been a major problem with electric energy is what do you do with the excess? And there is always excess. Since energy was so cheap for so long, no one did anything about it, or if they did, too many Phase 1ers spoke out. (Why do we need to store energy? We can just make more.)

Now, that it costs a lot more, and the infrastructure is in such a horrible way, we have companies developing means of storing energy on a mass scale. We just need that one A-Ha moment that jumps us to that next level. StorEn Technologies did a small jump, we just need a quantum jump.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Dan
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Old 03-09-2019, 10:54 AM   #92
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


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Wind Turbines for homes should also be explored. I live in an area where we have wind every day. A small turbine could generate power at every home in my town.
Wind turbines for homes have been explored, there have even been scams envoving them.

Problems with home wind turbines in a residential setting.
They make noise. You may not hear it during the day, but you often can during the night. Small turbines make proportionately more noise than large ones.

Wind turbines donít do well in turbulent air. The rule of thumb is the turbine should be at least 30 feet above the highest object within 300ft.

Wind turbine towers have been known to topple over either in extreme winds, or during raising/lowering a tower to work on the turbine. (Many towers are hinged. Most people are not going to climb 60-100 ft to work on a turbine.)

Wind turbines are known to throw blades on occasion. They can be launched quite a distance. While rare, having a 21 ft fiberglass spear (or any significant piece of onej launched in the neighborhood is not a risk you want to take.

Because of the noise, tower, and blades, some communities have outlawed wind turbines in residential properties. You need enough land to contain the risks to your own property.

The other thing is that you probably donít have as much wind as you think you have. Take a drive around the countryside near your town. If you are not seeing wind turbines (not old water pumping windmills), you probably donít have enough wind to justify the cost.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:06 AM   #93
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


@ktownskier Well said sir.

Early immigrants brought wind power technology with them from Europe and farmers used it to pump water for hundreds of years before they had power. Between wind sun and methane few farmers should be on the grid today.

Forty years ago a friend that owned a mink farm, he fed feed them free with outdated milk, ice cream, waste from food possessors and any road kill the police needed removed.

He had a system to take the methane out of the manure make the manure valuable as a fertilizer, he had a generator, running on the methane big enough to run the farm buildings and the three houses on the property.

He was green long before there was anything known as green.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:16 AM   #94
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Quote:
They pay .30 KWH for electricity in Germany, as opposed to the average of .12 in the U.S.
Germany also subsidizes their solar industry to encourage installations
Anyone see a connection between those sentences ?

The German Energiewende (Energy Transition) and its subsidies for PV and wind have driven up the cost of electricity dramatically.

Too much wind and solar has destabilized the grid. The grid operator used to intervene to stabilize the grid 3-4 times a year. They are now averaging about 3 corrections a day.

Here is an article on some of the not so great news about The Energiewende.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/09/...ophic-failure/

The scariest part of this is the the Green New Deal now being promoted here, is based upon the Energiewende.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:29 AM   #95
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


@Oso954. Is there a simple way to understand how extra power is feed back to the grid with out the grid overpowering the system at the house?
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:31 PM   #96
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


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Wind turbines for homes have been explored, there have even been scams envoving them.

Problems with home wind turbines in a residential setting.
They make noise. You may not hear it during the day, but you often can during the night. Small turbines make proportionately more noise than large ones.

Wind turbines donít do well in turbulent air. The rule of thumb is the turbine should be at least 30 feet above the highest object within 300ft.

Wind turbine towers have been known to topple over either in extreme winds, or during raising/lowering a tower to work on the turbine. (Many towers are hinged. Most people are not going to climb 60-100 ft to work on a turbine.)

Wind turbines are known to throw blades on occasion. They can be launched quite a distance. While rare, having a 21 ft fiberglass spear (or any significant piece of onej launched in the neighborhood is not a risk you want to take.

Because of the noise, tower, and blades, some communities have outlawed wind turbines in residential properties. You need enough land to contain the risks to your own property.

The other thing is that you probably donít have as much wind as you think you have. Take a drive around the countryside near your town. If you are not seeing wind turbines (not old water pumping windmills), you probably donít have enough wind to justify the cost.
@os094

I am not attacking your views, they are yours as much as @Nealtw 's are his and @DallasCowboys are his. But I am wondering why you are such a naysayer on most everything that others have posted. Which leads me to ponder what you would have thought about other things from different eras.

The crossbolt over the long box, the trebuchet over the catapult, the telephone over the telegraph. The telegraph over the Pony Express. The Railroad over the carriage. Please, take this in the tongue in cheek manner it was written as. I am not meaning to disparage your views, or thoughts or person.

You tend to speak in generalities. "some communities have banned wind turbines in residential areas." How many, where and why?
Wind chimes make a lot of noise as well.

"Wind turbines are known to throw blades on occasion." How often has this happened? How many incidents per wind turbines installed. Any injuries or deaths reported? How severe the injuries?

Nothing does well in turbulences, unless it is designed to take advantage of it.

The point I have been trying to make is that you don't make advancements without at least trying. And when you try, you make mistakes. And mistakes are painful and sometimes result in death. And that is tragic. But at least you tried and hopefully you and others can learn from mistakes. A quote attributed to Edison states: "I learned 99 ways to NOT make a light bulb!"

And like @Nealtw said about his Mink Farmer friend, he made small advances until he was self sustaining. A wind turbine pumping water, converting manure into methane and fertilizer. Two valuable commodities.

I am not saying that we all should go live in BC and become Mink Farmers (It does sound like it would be fun for about a week). I am saying that we need to all do our part.

Also, I do not understand what the problem with stabilizing the grid, two or three times a day is. Isn't that what the POCO is supposed to do?

Isn't having having everyone switch to LED's, more energy efficient appliances, better more efficient HVAC systems. helping them? Reducing their need to build more power plants?

Then having Solar Panels on our roofs, in the desert, on flat roof tops anywhere that they can generate power should be even more of a benefit to them.

Yes, I am passionate about this, just as you are about your views. I look at it on a more hopeful side that even a little bit is better than nothing.

Dan
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Old 03-09-2019, 01:20 PM   #97
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Quote:
I also believe that we should build more nuclear power plants.
You have got to be kidding me.
Other Countries are trying to get rid of them, and you want to build more.
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Old 03-09-2019, 01:28 PM   #98
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Our nat gas supplier is working with dairy farmers and using food waste to make gas now.

https://www.fortisbc.com/services/su...-gas-suppliers
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Old 03-09-2019, 01:54 PM   #99
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Quote:
Is there a simple way to understand how extra power is feed back to the grid with out the grid overpowering the system at the house?
Electricity flows from high voltage to low voltage. It doesn't have to be a great difference, but it is there.

Your house loads are self regulating. They are only going to draw the watts that they need to operate (when things are working correctly). If they did not self regulate, you would be experience over currents simply by dialing up a light dimmer or turning up the stove.

So, just as an example with made up round numbers.
Your utility power is 120v per leg. Your house load has drawn the power voltage to 119. Your inverter kicks in and it will pick a higher voltage than what it sees, perhaps 121.

If we break it into steps, it's going to fill the lower voltage house load first. When it has cranked enough watts into the house load, the house load voltage will climb and be equal to the grid. As the voltage of the inverter climbs above grid, power will start to flow out onto the grid simultaneously. As more watts are crank out from the inverter, a few watts extra in the house load forces house voltage sightly above the grid voltage, so the bulk of extra wattage all goes out to the lower voltage grid.

Once it's up on the pole, it will first supply other local demand (houses on same transformer). If the local demand doesn't use the power, it will backfeed the transformer and flow out on the primary side.

I slowed it down, hopefully to make it more understandable. In reality, these things happen within a cycle or so.
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:02 PM   #100
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ktownskier View Post
@os094

I am not attacking your views, they are yours as much as @Nealtw 's are his and @DallasCowboys are his. But I am wondering why you are such a naysayer on most everything that others have posted. Which leads me to ponder what you would have thought about other things from different eras.

The crossbolt over the long box, the trebuchet over the catapult, the telephone over the telegraph. The telegraph over the Pony Express. The Railroad over the carriage. Please, take this in the tongue in cheek manner it was written as. I am not meaning to disparage your views, or thoughts or person.

You tend to speak in generalities. "some communities have banned wind turbines in residential areas." How many, where and why?
Wind chimes make a lot of noise as well.

"Wind turbines are known to throw blades on occasion." How often has this happened? How many incidents per wind turbines installed. Any injuries or deaths reported? How severe the injuries?

Nothing does well in turbulences, unless it is designed to take advantage of it.

The point I have been trying to make is that you don't make advancements without at least trying. And when you try, you make mistakes. And mistakes are painful and sometimes result in death. And that is tragic. But at least you tried and hopefully you and others can learn from mistakes. A quote attributed to Edison states: "I learned 99 ways to NOT make a light bulb!"

And like @Nealtw said about his Mink Farmer friend, he made small advances until he was self sustaining. A wind turbine pumping water, converting manure into methane and fertilizer. Two valuable commodities.

I am not saying that we all should go live in BC and become Mink Farmers (It does sound like it would be fun for about a week). I am saying that we need to all do our part.

Also, I do not understand what the problem with stabilizing the grid, two or three times a day is. Isn't that what the POCO is supposed to do?

Isn't having having everyone switch to LED's, more energy efficient appliances, better more efficient HVAC systems. helping them? Reducing their need to build more power plants?

Then having Solar Panels on our roofs, in the desert, on flat roof tops anywhere that they can generate power should be even more of a benefit to them.

Yes, I am passionate about this, just as you are about your views. I look at it on a more hopeful side that even a little bit is better than nothing.

Dan
So I am a naysayer. Thereís no possibility that I might have experiance and recognize some of the drawbacks, right?
There is no need for me to sing the benefits. They are over sung by promoters and people that have bought into it.

Sometimes I speak in generalities because some people arenít interested in a lot of statistics. In other cases, the statistics may be out of date or the source documents donít clearly state what the case is. Is it an outright ban written into the zoning laws, or is the locality using other existing laws to effectively ban them ?
Here is a case where a homeowner was ordered to remove a turbine (VAWT, not HAWT) and went to jail over it. The real points are in the neighbors complaints.
Itís real easy for someone that has never lived or worked around wind turbines to dismiss the complaints as overblown.

The other complaint I didnít list but the article points out is stŲbe effect. If the shadow of the wind turbine falls on the neighbor property (or even yours) the shadow-light-shadow of the turning blades can be annoying as heck.

The grid is supposed to run and be stable. Stabilizing the grid usually means an unplanned corrective action to keep the system from browning out, blacking out, or the reverse (going to extreme over voltage). If the action isnít taken, relay protective schemes will start automatic load shedding.

In the case of Germany (and California) there are independent Grid Operators. They decide in a competitive market what power to buy from whom, make operating decisions as to powerplants and major transmission lines.
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:35 PM   #101
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Here is the article I forgot to attach.https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ill...inning-in-jail
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:36 PM   #102
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Of course you may be right. And you do bring up some valid points. But so do others.

I forgot about the strobe effect. It is very annoying and can be very dangerous for some people.

The reason I called you a naysayer was that you tend to say that you can't do this, that won't work, etc. I don't recall you saying that we should be doing "this" or "that". If I missed it, I do apologize. It was my error.

I have always gone by the principle of you can't ***** about something until you come up with something to try and fix it. I got most of my promotions because I like to think outside of the box or look at things a different way. Of course not everything works, not even 1 in 10. But because we tried a new way, it may trigger someone else to get that "A-HA" moment.

Thank you for enlightening me about the grid. Information is always good.

Dan
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Old 03-09-2019, 06:43 PM   #103
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
Electricity flows from high voltage to low voltage. It doesn't have to be a great difference, but it is there.

Your house loads are self regulating. They are only going to draw the watts that they need to operate (when things are working correctly). If they did not self regulate, you would be experience over currents simply by dialing up a light dimmer or turning up the stove.

So, just as an example with made up round numbers.
Your utility power is 120v per leg. Your house load has drawn the power voltage to 119. Your inverter kicks in and it will pick a higher voltage than what it sees, perhaps 121.

If we break it into steps, it's going to fill the lower voltage house load first. When it has cranked enough watts into the house load, the house load voltage will climb and be equal to the grid. As the voltage of the inverter climbs above grid, power will start to flow out onto the grid simultaneously. As more watts are crank out from the inverter, a few watts extra in the house load forces house voltage sightly above the grid voltage, so the bulk of extra wattage all goes out to the lower voltage grid.

Once it's up on the pole, it will first supply other local demand (houses on same transformer). If the local demand doesn't use the power, it will backfeed the transformer and flow out on the primary side.

I slowed it down, hopefully to make it more understandable. In reality, these things happen within a cycle or so.
Thanks that was simple enough even for me.
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:55 AM   #104
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


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You have got to be kidding me.
Other Countries are trying to get rid of them, and you want to build more.

If you don't quote the poster in correct format, they will not get the notification and alert to reply.

The fact is that we are way behind on nuclear in this country because the fossil fuel industry did a great job of demonizing the power sourcing via 3 mile island. Nuclear, if you subscribe to the carbon crisis logic, is the safest and most readily deployed source of power that could easily replace outdated combustion based power generation. It does give off water vapor via the cooling towers which does have a warming potential, but that is more readily converted back in to liquid via normal weather processes.

Nuclear is also more easily ramp'ed up and down to contend with the fluctuations in grid demand.

For the record, I absolutely thing that we should be growing renewable generation and especially as the battery technology evolves and gets to a point were "off grid" storage is more feasible. That said, I haven't seen anyone in this thread that was Anti-renewable. I have seen folks, present company included, that are anti-government propping up a minute sector of the nation's power generation.
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Old 03-10-2019, 11:25 AM   #105
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Re: Solar required on New Homes.


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The fact is that we are way behind on nuclear in this country because the fossil fuel industry did a great job of demonizing the power sourcing via 3 mile island. Nuclear, if you subscribe to the carbon crisis logic, is the safest and most readily deployed source of power that could easily replace outdated combustion based power generation.

Nuclear probably is the safest form of power. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco.../#6e50884b709b


But its not the fossil fuel industry that is killing nuclear, its the cost. How are the new VC Summer nuclear plants in South Carolina coming along? Any cost number for building a new nuclear plant comes in at 11 figures. I don't think too many power companies are lining up for more of that kind of project. A natural gas power plant is a just a part number. If you were president of your local power company (a good paying gig for sure), would you risk your job by suggesting a new nuclear plant?
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