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Old 03-23-2017, 07:02 AM   #1
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RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


I am deciding how to do my shower liner ... buy a pan and drop in or do my own with some nice tile.

Anyway, I came across a bucket of the waterproofing red stuff you apply around and on backboard and saw that it claims/listed as use for SHOWER LINER.

Has anyone worked with just this and not placed a PVC liner down? Would be interested in comments.....particulary how to use at the drain.

Thanks
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:10 AM   #2
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Not sure about Redguard, but they do have approved roll on liquid liners. I'd never think of using that instead of a proper membrane liner. Not worth the risk for me.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:22 PM   #3
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


I've sure never seen it done.....and I assumed it was because of a non-waterproof connection at the drain... exxpressley what you are questioning.

That pan liner makes a tight "gasket" fit at the drain.

If your sub bed gets moist... you are likely playing with moldy smell and possible migration to the subfloor... over time.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:55 PM   #4
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Red Guard or similar waterproofing goes over your walls. You can cover your mortar pan with it, but it is not intended to waterproof the pan. You would have to research how to install a mortar pan, but they are best done by skilled tradesman. First you install a dry pack mud base, then a chloraloy liner or equivalent that the drain cinches down on, and then more mud at the proper slope. Some tile shops are selling plastic guides that fit in the pan and help achieve a nice slope. It is time-consuming and tedious, not for DIY'ers. If you get a "fiberglass" pan, get something like a floorstone pan that is thick with no give. A 3'x3' pan will cost around $250. We installed a curbless tray recently, it is sold as a kit with water-proofing and inserts for the corners. It was designed to be tiled. Cost about $1700 for a 3'3' pan. It can be a lot of work, depending on what your existing floors are as far as remodels go. Good luck.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:37 PM   #5
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Redgard is APPROVED as a pan liner. Here is the PDF from redgard on it.

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/TDS/TDS-104.pdf
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:30 AM   #6
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Oh Yeah, it does a great job in my outdoor pond. However, it will fail over time at the drain connection.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:45 AM   #7
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Originally Posted by paul100 View Post
Redgard is APPROVED as a pan liner. Here is the PDF from redgard on it.

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/TDS/TDS-104.pdf
I coated a concrete slope with RedGuard 35 days after the concrete was installed. I did install a typical pan liner too. I seemed logical to put the barrier closer to the tiles.

Taking pictures of the process gave me the time line between those tasks. A couple hardened spots of thin set I missed while doing the walls were scraped off with a trowel edge. It pulled the RedGuard off the concrete. Further pulls around that new flaw, it all pulled and peeled off pretty easily. The instructions say to wait 28 days, l wouldn't use this product on concrete. I gave my 25 year old concrete garage floor a spot test, and it didn't bond either. Bonded fine to the DensShield wall board, excepting outer corners where the core is exposed in the threshold opening walls.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:06 PM   #8
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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I coated a concrete slope with RedGuard 35 days after the concrete was installed. I did install a typical pan liner too. I seemed logical to put the barrier closer to the tiles.

Taking pictures of the process gave me the time line between those tasks. A couple hardened spots of thin set I missed while doing the walls were scraped off with a trowel edge. It pulled the RedGuard off the concrete. Further pulls around that new flaw, it all pulled and peeled off pretty easily. The instructions say to wait 28 days, l wouldn't use this product on concrete. I gave my 25 year old concrete garage floor a spot test, and it didn't bond either. Bonded fine to the DensShield wall board, excepting outer corners where the core is exposed in the threshold opening walls.
Interesting point.....

I'm no proponent of redguard for shower pans.... but if you think about it... does it matter any if the redguard will pull up from the sub pan... so will a rubber membrane....

My problem is how do you seal it to a drain....

Does Custom even address this.
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:37 AM   #9
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Interesting point.....

I'm no proponent of redguard for shower pans.... but if you think about it... does it matter any if the redguard will pull up from the sub pan... so will a rubber membrane....

My problem is how do you seal it to a drain....

Does Custom even address this.
Yeah, the drain seal is the hitch in the giddyup. I've never seen how the drain can be (bullet proof) sealed.

Maybe it's like a hot mop? I've never seen one done up close and personal so I don't know. How do they handle the drain for a hot mop?
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:47 AM   #10
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Originally Posted by la Faux View Post
I coated a concrete slope with RedGuard 35 days after the concrete was installed. I did install a typical pan liner too. I seemed logical to put the barrier closer to the tiles.

Taking pictures of the process gave me the time line between those tasks. A couple hardened spots of thin set I missed while doing the walls were scraped off with a trowel edge. It pulled the RedGuard off the concrete. Further pulls around that new flaw, it all pulled and peeled off pretty easily. The instructions say to wait 28 days, l wouldn't use this product on concrete. I gave my 25 year old concrete garage floor a spot test, and it didn't bond either. Bonded fine to the DensShield wall board, excepting outer corners where the core is exposed in the threshold opening walls.
Well that's an image that's gonna fester.

Did you apply a 4/1 water to product primer coat? The only times I've seen it get flakey is when applied to dry backerboard or curb. If it turns red immediately, the surface is too dry.

I don't know if I would trust it on a smooth troweled floor.

I wet down the backerboard a couple times before application.

I built a pan for a buddy (pro bono) and gave him the task of redgarding it. Gave him instructions. Luckily I checked up on it before he went too far. He had flakes on the curb. When I asked why he didn't wet it down I got the glazed look. Doh!! I had to grind some off.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:42 AM   #11
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Well that's an image that's gonna fester.

Did you apply a 4/1 water to product primer coat? The only times I've seen it get flakey is when applied to dry backerboard or curb. If it turns red immediately, the surface is too dry.

I don't know if I would trust it on a smooth troweled floor.

I wet down the backerboard a couple times before application.

I built a pan for a buddy (pro bono) and gave him the task of redgarding it. Gave him instructions. Luckily I checked up on it before he went too far. He had flakes on the curb. When I asked why he didn't wet it down I got the glazed look. Doh!! I had to grind some off.
I prepped the concrete really good, brushed the loose sand particles and then vacuumed it so there was no dust. The instructions are pretty clear, do not apply to a wet surface! I didn't wet the surface. Concrete can be fussy stuff. The adhesion to the Densshield was good. Tested with Gorilla duct tape for adhesion and it couldn't remove it from that board, it would attack the Densshield just a tiny bit. I had to use this tape to hold the tiles in place as I was doing all the cuts first.

I had a novice guy (friend with 3 showers on his belt) do the first concrete pad as Ive never done one. When I could scratch thru that layer with my finger, I decided to remove it and do it myself with a little more water added. His attempt was dry mixed, easier to level and float but not a solid floor.

Perhaps the concrete should have a modified layer of Thin set if you plan on redquarding it. I would test that if it was my only option now, but Ill tile over the concrete.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:09 PM   #12
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Originally Posted by la Faux View Post
I prepped the concrete really good, brushed the loose sand particles and then vacuumed it so there was no dust. The instructions are pretty clear, do not apply to a wet surface! I didn't wet the surface. Concrete can be fussy stuff. The adhesion to the Densshield was good. Tested with Gorilla duct tape for adhesion and it couldn't remove it from that board, it would attack the Densshield just a tiny bit. I had to use this tape to hold the tiles in place as I was doing all the cuts first.

I had a novice guy (friend with 3 showers on his belt) do the first concrete pad as Ive never done one. When I could scratch thru that layer with my finger, I decided to remove it and do it myself with a little more water added. His attempt was dry mixed, easier to level and float but not a solid floor.

Perhaps the concrete should have a modified layer of Thin set if you plan on redquarding it. I would test that if it was my only option now, but Ill tile over the concrete.
When I wet the board it dries to the touch pretty quickly. I learned my lesson the hard way to cover the floor so redgard won't spill on a wet floor -- it won't dry and will need to be ground off. So I cover the floor and let it dry to the touch since it will be soaked from wetting the walls.

It was actually a Custom Products engineer who suggested wetting the walls as alternative to a primer coat.

If I had any worries about redgard bonding to CBU, they were put to rest on the last shower job I did. I had to pull a couple pieces of wall tile I wasn't happy with and ended up taking the top layer of the backerboard.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:26 PM   #13
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


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Originally Posted by RickMacKay View Post
Red Guard or similar waterproofing goes over your walls. You can cover your mortar pan with it, but it is not intended to waterproof the pan. You would have to research how to install a mortar pan, but they are best done by skilled tradesman. First you install a dry pack mud base, then a chloraloy liner or equivalent that the drain cinches down on, and then more mud at the proper slope. Some tile shops are selling plastic guides that fit in the pan and help achieve a nice slope. It is time-consuming and tedious, not for DIY'ers. If you get a "fiberglass" pan, get something like a floorstone pan that is thick with no give. A 3'x3' pan will cost around $250. We installed a curbless tray recently, it is sold as a kit with water-proofing and inserts for the corners. It was designed to be tiled. Cost about $1700 for a 3'3' pan. It can be a lot of work, depending on what your existing floors are as far as remodels go. Good luck.
I disagree that a pan can't be done by a homeowner. Someone who wants to take the time to follow instructions and do it right can make a nice shower pan.

I guess I just don't trust most people. And the includes a lot of professionals.

I wouldn't trust any shower I didn't do myself or watch, like a hawk, a build someone else did.

I've seen too much "I've always done it this way and never had a problem" bs.

I have a friend who has a new million dollar house with a constant mildew issue around their big beautiful walk-in shower at the joint between the floor and walls. I'm certain there is no pre slope.

I walked my brother through a pan install. He's a concrete guy so he took to it like a fish to water. Later he was doing a job with a plumber buddy of his and the plumber refused to do a pre slope -- always did it that way never had a problem. Waste of time... etc. etc. Yeah, he never had to deal with mildew issues a year later.
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:51 AM   #14
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Quote:
Originally Posted by JPM View Post
. . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPM View Post
Has anyone worked with just this and not placed a PVC liner down? Would be interested in comments.....particulary how to use at the drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
I've sure never seen it done.....and I assumed it was because of a non-waterproof connection at the drain... exxpressley what you are questioning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post

Quote:
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. . . .
Quote:
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My problem is how do you seal it {RedGard} to a drain ....


Well, saying you have pre-sloped to equal the height of the base drain flange, I've seen a technique where you cut out a swatch of real fiberglass cloth, let's say 10"x10", and lay it atop the entire base flange thus overlapping out onto the pre-slope area. You then saturate it with RedGard (RG) during your normal RG application. I'd imagine you could do two layers of this technique.
Once all is dry, you simply bolt-on the top drain flange and cut out the center of the cloth swatch to unblock the normal drain passage.
The embedded fiber cloth will add strengthen/thickness where the RG bridges from the pre-slope to the flange face, and add strengthen/thickness where you will attain a good clinching of the top flange. Without the added cloth, the clinching of the top flange is likely to crush/separate the thin RG membrane atop the bottom flange face, which is why it fails.
Heck, fiberglass cloth isn’t that expensive, thus if you really wanted to make a trustworthy custom liner out of just RedGard, why not line the entire shower basin with cloth.
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Old 08-31-2017, 05:56 PM   #15
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Re: RedGard approved as shower pan liner???


Pretty interesting technique... always something new to learn... Thanks

I'm just not sure if it is easier and more certain than a "rubber (or whatever it is)" liner.

I've done maybe a half dozen pans myself (often sub them out).... takes me forever getting a good
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