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Old 09-12-2014, 02:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPro View Post
Sorry Bob but it is you who need to educate yourself. There it's plenty of building science behind the position that a VB is not needed in most applications and climate. Here's a couple to start you off on.

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-b...rrier-Probably
LOL!
Did you see the title?
Quote:
You Don't Need a Vapor Barrier (Probably)


What the heck is that.. and written by.... who?!?!
Look, clearly you wish to argue simply for the sake of arguing. I on the other hand have not got that kind of time on my hands.
I will agree to disagree with you and hope that not too many people take you seriously
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:57 PM   #62
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LOL!
Did you see the title?
[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

What the heck is that.. and written by.... who?!?!
Look, clearly you wish to argue simply for the sake of arguing. I on the other hand have not got that kind of time on my hands.
I will agree to disagree with you and hope that not too many people take you seriously
Right...the title was probably...you said a MUST. You position was you MUST install VB and have stood by that position. I don't like to argue. What I don't like is definitive statements that are not based on facts. What I don't like is being told by someone I just met that I need to educate myself and that I don't know what I am talking about.

Bob I simply disagreed with you and you took it personal. How do I know? because at every turn you have insinuated that I don't know what I am talking about and that I need to get an education in building science.

If you read the article you would have seen that VB keep moisture that is in the house out of the insulated space. You would also see that very little water transfers through materials in that manner. Most moisture comes from the outside and even a small air leak can let a lot of water.

I will post a few more articles since you seem to think it's just me and not actual people who investigate, research and test these building methods.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...vapor-retarder

My argument is that you need air barriers and vapor diffuses more than a vapor barrier. I also didn't argue that a VB isn't a good idea in some situations, but I would never say it is a MUST when it isn't, and that's not just my opinion.
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Old 09-12-2014, 06:45 PM   #63
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It's getting to the point that there are so many typos and/or misspelled words in your posts that they're getting difficult to read. yeah yeah I know, you're doing it on purpose....
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Old 09-12-2014, 06:53 PM   #64
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It's getting to the point that there are so many typos and/or misspelled words in your posts that they're getting difficult to read. yeah yeah I know, you're doing it on purpose....
Excuses, excuses...

No, the Ban was the only purposeful error. The rest are just typos. I'm only human, but if that's all ya got and you still won't address the one huge question that I have repeated over and over, I know where I stand. Thanks for playing, next!
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Old 09-12-2014, 06:56 PM   #65
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I don't have much to say about vapor barriers - I'm just sayin' - you come here bragging about being a pro and asking for respect - you're not doing yourself any favors, that's all I'm sayin.... you do whatever you like.....
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:53 PM   #66
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A lot of jaw flapping and not much substance. Back to personal jabs I see. About what I expect from guys like you. I've backed up everything I've said unlike others who claim to know more than industry leaders.
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Old 09-13-2014, 10:52 AM   #67
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Bob,

Just got my new issue of FineHomebuilding and what would you know? They have a great article on page 40.

"Air barriers, vapor barriers, water-resistive barriers, and insulation"

"A vapor barrier, also known as a Class I vapor retarder, is a material such as polyethlene or metal. When you put one in an assembly, it lets almost no water vapor diffuse through. About the only places you need to use a full-blown vapor barrier are under a slab or when you encapsulate a crawl space."

The article was written by Allison Bailes III, Ph.D., energy consultant with Evergy Vangaurd.
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:13 AM   #68
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"A vapor barrier, also known as a Class I vapor retarder, is a material such as polyethlene or metal. When you put one in an assembly, it lets almost no water vapor diffuse through. About the only places you need to use a full-blown vapor barrier are under a slab or when you encapsulate a crawl space.".
Ummm... yes, that's the general idea.

ONCE AGAIN...
This is the reason you use a product like Tyvek on the outside. One side of your substrate must be breathable so that vapor does not get trapped.
Wiki:
Quote:
The industry has recognized that in many circumstances it may be impractical to design and build building assemblies which never get wet. Good design and practice involve controlling the wetting of building assemblies from both the exterior and interior.[3] So, the use of vapor barrier should be taken into consideration. Their use has already been legislated within the building code of some countries (such as the U.S., Canada, Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales). How, where, and whether a vapor barrier (vapor diffusion retarder) should be used depends on the climate. Typically, the number of Heating Degree Days in an area is used to help make these determinations. A Heating Degree Day is a unit that measures how often outdoor daily dry-bulb temperatures fall below an assumed base, normally 18C (65F).[4] For building in most parts of North America, where winter heating conditions predominate, vapor barrier are placed toward the interior, heated side of insulation in the assembly. In humid regions where warm-weather cooling predominates within buildings, the vapor barrier should be located toward the exterior side of insulation. In relatively mild or balanced climates, or where assemblies are designed to minimize condensation conditions, a vapor barrier may not be necessary at all.[5]
An interior vapor retarder is useful in heating-dominated climates while an exterior vapor retarder is useful in cooling-dominated climates. In most climates it is often better to have a vapor-open building assembly, meaning that walls and roofs should be designed to dry:[6]
Read and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_barrier
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:20 AM   #69
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For building in most parts of North America, where winter heating conditions predominate, vapor barrier are placed toward the interior, heated side of insulation in the assembly. In humid regions where warm-weather cooling predominates within buildings, the vapor barrier should be located toward the exterior side of insulation. In relatively mild or balanced climates, or where assemblies are designed to minimize condensation conditions, a vapor barrier may not be necessary at all...In most climates it is often better to have a vapor-open building assembly, meaning that walls and roofs should be designed to dry
I'm in the humid South, and I can tell you that there has been some construction where poly sheeting has been used on the interior side of the inusulation. This has caused some bad condensation, mold, and rotting of stud walls. For sure, no vapor barrier at all would be better than putting it on the inside. Whether using none at all would be better than putting it on the outside, I couldn't tell ya, but my intuition leans me toward "yes".
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Old 09-14-2014, 01:48 PM   #70
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I'm in the humid South, and I can tell you that there has been some construction where poly sheeting has been used on the interior side of the inusulation. This has caused some bad condensation, mold, and rotting of stud walls. For sure, no vapor barrier at all would be better than putting it on the inside. Whether using none at all would be better than putting it on the outside, I couldn't tell ya, but my intuition leans me toward "yes".
That's what the actual science is concluding. Air Sealing is more important.
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:19 PM   #71
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Ummm... yes, that's the general idea.

ONCE AGAIN...
This is the reason you use a product like Tyvek on the outside. One side of your substrate must be breathable so that vapor does not get trapped.
Wiki:


Read and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_barrier
Bob,

Let's just go back over what happened. You stated that it was a MUST, when it isn't. You stated that I needed to educate myself on the subject. I proved that I already am and have provided plenty of actual facts to back it up.

The science is there. Diffusion from the interior to the exterior is so little that poly is not warranted in most applications. That is what both sources I produced concluded. And those sources are some of the top researchers on this subject.

Your evidence now is that bureaucrats agree with you because they passed legislation? So now if a politician passes a law the science behind their decision is solid.

I have provided ample evidence that VB are not a MUST in most applications.
If you choose to ignore it and dig your heels in, that's on you. That's why I brought up the basement example. At one time it was code to install a VB in a basement. It wasn't until the science was understood completely, and the results were disastrous, that we now know not to install it in a subterranean area. While it's not as serious, it's also not a MUST as you prescribe.
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Old 09-14-2014, 06:59 PM   #72
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:57 AM   #73
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I just wanted to throw out a little update. I have done more, but these are the latest pictures I have taken. In those pictures I have opened up the floor, cut out the old plumbing and found why the sink and shower didn't drain - the drain pipe literally grew shut over time. So it was well worth it ripping out the floor and doing all this work. I already cut the cast iron waste pipe off - that was a pain since I had to leave an inch for the new adapter piece - had to cut off right by the joist. I will run 3" PVC plumbing and connect the 1 1/2" sink and shower to it. On the bad side: Looking at the floor joists and how they cut out for the plumbing is not really ideal. Especially the joist where the toilet waste pipe runs through does not look sturdy. So I will put it some sisterjoists to make sure my floor is rigid enough. I will put a 3/4 plywood subfloor on the joists and then the hardibacker. If the floor is not 100% even I will work that out with adding more thinset underneath the hardibacker. If its off by too much I would use SLC ontop of the hardibacker.

Sucks, my wife is an athletic trainer and works till 9:30PM during the week and with 2 kids there is no chance for me to drive the project. Once the "loud" work is done I will do some plumbing when the kids sleep.
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Bathroom Remodel 2nd floor-img_8324.jpg   Bathroom Remodel 2nd floor-img_8325.jpg   Bathroom Remodel 2nd floor-img_8327.jpg   Bathroom Remodel 2nd floor-img_8330.jpg   Bathroom Remodel 2nd floor-img_8331.jpg  

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Old 09-18-2014, 08:11 PM   #74
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Wow, that floor is wrecked. There isn't much holding that together.

But looks like you are making progress. Keep trucking!
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:12 AM   #75
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I suggest you go to plumbing and ask questions there. I don't know the names, but you can't have tee or wye connections that way, esp the toilet flange. These off shoots must not be laying on the side.
You've opened a can of worms there. The joists look under sized and cut away beyond simple "sistering" repair. You may have to build a wall under those joists. May have to drop the ceiling underneath to connect the fixtures and toilet drains.
Rethink supply pipes with pex that you can bend around/through the frame than notching.
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