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Old 09-11-2014, 08:01 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
On that I will agree. There SHOULD be no condensation and if there is, it only because things are not air tight (improperly done).

In Canada it is imperative an independent VB goes up and it is sealed TIGHT. Our Winter temperatures can hit the -40's and at those temps ANY humidity in the house will get sucked through the walls if permitted. Of course it has to go through the insulation first which diminishes the r value.

Again, I do not advise any part of the bath/shower to be used as part of the VB. Even if there is a SLIGHT shift in the wall a crack will appear in your multi piece VB, and that crack renders a large section of the VB totally useless and may as well not be there at all.
I'm in Chicago...it gets pretty cold here as well.

Your point that the humidity getting sucked through is mute when the shower is waterproofed.

VB are usually 6 Mil poly that is stapled up and then your substrate is screwed through it. So your VB already has a ton of holes in it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:47 PM   #47
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the manufacturer thinks that using Kerdi Band over the seams of individually cut pieces is just the right amount.
This statement makes no sense. This is like saying "using paper tape on drywall joints is just the right amount."

The drywall manufacturers do not recommend an "amount" of seams. They just tell you how to finish them. Schluter does not recommend an "amount" of Kerdi Band nor an "amount" of pieces of Kerdi. They just show you what is possible.

You want to reduce the number of joints or seams when you build something, as a general rule. You seem to have a problem with this general principle. It would be stupid to create a seam between 2 Kerdi sections on the wall and then cover the seam with Kerdi Band. It doesn't matter that Kerdi Band will work, it's just dumb and wasteful. You use Kerdi Band when you need to, not just because you can. Using Kerdi Band instead of overlapping the Kerdi would be like cutting your 4x8 sheet of drywall in half just so you can tape up the joint on the wall.

Schluter reps will always recommend you overlap Kerdi when you can, rather than using a seam with Kerdi Band. Unless you talk to one who just wants to sell you more Kerdi Band. Obviously Schluter would be perfectly happy to sell a lot of Kerdi Band. The fact is you don't really need Kerdi Band per se - really you just need some 4" strips, whether it's Kerdi Band or Kerdi (you will have Kerdi waste anyway so you can cut it from that). The only reasons I use Kerdi Band are
- it comes with a shower kit, which I sometimes buy
- cutting Kerdi strips take time, so if I have a lot of cutting then Kerdi Band might pay for itself
- it's very slightly thinner than Kerdi Band, so if I'm in an area where I've got Kerdi sheet, Kerdi Band, Kerdi corners and I'm really trying to watch my buildup because I'm using small tile, then it's slightly preferred.

But my cost for Kerdi is about $1/sf, and Kerdi Band is about $3/sf, so cutting my own strips of Kerdi makes financial sense.

If it's the case that a DIYer is working alone and can't seem to manage a full sheet of Kerdi around a tub surround, for example, and wants to cut it into smaller pieces and use Kerdi Band at the wall corners, then fine - that will work. But it takes more time, more thinset, more money. For a pro to do that would be inefficient.

I realize you haven't used Kerdi much if at all, but still it is not a difficult thing for a pro installer to do.

Last edited by jeffnc; 09-11-2014 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:17 PM   #48
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This statement makes no sense. This is like saying "using paper tape on drywall joints is just the right amount."

The drywall manufacturers do not recommend an "amount" of seams. They just tell you how to finish them. Schluter does not recommend an "amount" of Kerdi Band nor an "amount" of pieces of Kerdi. They just show you what is possible.

You want to reduce the number of joints or seams when you build something, as a general rule. You seem to have a problem with this general principle. It would be stupid to create a seam between 2 Kerdi sections on the wall and then cover the seam with Kerdi Band. It doesn't matter that Kerdi Band will work, it's just dumb and wasteful. You use Kerdi Band when you need to, not just because you can. Using Kerdi Band instead of overlapping the Kerdi would be like cutting your 4x8 sheet of drywall in half just so you can tape up the joint on the wall.

Schluter reps will always recommend you overlap Kerdi when you can, rather than using a seam with Kerdi Band. Unless you talk to one who just wants to sell you more Kerdi Band. Obviously Schluter would be perfectly happy to sell a lot of Kerdi Band. The fact is you don't really need Kerdi Band per se - really you just need some 4" strips, whether it's Kerdi Band or Kerdi (you will have Kerdi waste anyway so you can cut it from that). The only reasons I use Kerdi Band are
- it comes with a shower kit, which I sometimes buy
- cutting Kerdi takes time, so if I have a lot of cutting then Kerdi Band might pay for itself
- it's very slightly thinner than Kerdi Band, so if I'm in an area where I've got Kerdi sheet, Kerdi Band, Kerdi corners and I'm really trying to watch my buildup because I'm using small tile, then it's slightly preferred.

But my cost for Kerdi is about $1/sf, and Kerdi Band is about $3/sf, so cutting my own strips of Kerdi makes financial sense.

If it's the case that a DIYer is working alone and can't seem to manage a full sheet of Kerdi around a tub surround, for example, and wants to cut it into smaller pieces and use Kerdi Band at the wall corners, then fine - that will work. But it takes more time, more thinset, more money. For a pro to do that would be inefficient.

I realize you haven't used Kerdi much if at all, but still it is not a difficult thing for a pro installer to do.
Jeff you have to stop. I am a pro. I do this for a living and I have already said that I have installed the system. I know that this makes up for something missing in your life, but to continue to insinuate that I am not what I say I am is a bit juvenile and truly shows what kind a man you really are. Grow up bro and let's try to have a conversation where we respect each other. We don't have to agree, but respect is a must.

Schulter recommends two different methods of installation. A 2" overlap or Kerdi Band. Both are accepted practices for bridging a plane change.

Here is what they say in their installation handbook:

Seams in the membrane are constructed by
overlapping the edges by 2" (50 mm) with
unmodified thin-set mortar or by abutting
adjacent sheets and installing KERDI-BAND
with unmodified thin-set mortar, centered
over the joint.


So the use of Kerdi-Band (notice it not Kerdi Band but Kerdi-Band and since you are a stickler for detail, please use the proper hyphen moving forward ), which adds the seams that you say adds potential points of failure, is a perfectly accepted practice and by your own standard, you should trust your waterproofing. So there is no reason to worry about adding potential points of failure if you trust your waterproofing, especially since it was installed per the manufacturers instructions.

My problem is that you lean on the manufacturers instructions when it suits you, but then indicate that they are setting you up for failure by using a product they recommend and in the manner in which the recommend it's use.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:39 PM   #49
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You're talking about a plane change. Obviously you can't overlap Kerdi in every direction in a shower stall. You use overlap where you can, and Kerdi Band where you can't.

If you butt adjacent sheets on one wall and use Kerdi Band to seal the seam it's just plain stupid from a construction point of view, when you can overlap the Kerdi sheets. Just because something is allowed and works doesn't mean you should do it, and it doesn't mean Schluter recommends that method over overlapping (they don't). Do whatever you want in your installs, but I'm just letting the readers know.

There are no instructions from Schluter that tell you you should seam with Kerdi Band on a flat wall. They just show you it's an option.

The primary use for Kerdi Band over a butted seam is over Ditra.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:54 PM   #50
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You're talking about a plane change. Obviously you can't overlap Kerdi in every direction in a shower stall. You use overlap where you can, and Kerdi Band where you can't.

If you butt adjacent sheets on one wall and use Kerdi Band to seal the seam it's just plain stupid from a construction point of view, when you can overlap the Kerdi sheets. Just because something is allowed and works doesn't mean you should do it, and it doesn't mean Schluter recommends that method over overlapping (they don't). Do whatever you want in your installs, but I'm just letting the readers know.

There are no instructions from Schluter that tell you you should seam with Kerdi Band on a flat wall. They just show you it's an option.

The primary use for Kerdi Band over a butted seam is over Ditra.
Using words like stupid is a sign of disrespect. This is such an insignificant subject, yet you cannot refrain from insults. Please John, for the last time show some respect to others as well as some self respect. If your argument is good enough it can stand on its own. It does not need insults or insinuations.

You know what my point was and this has little to do with it. For the readers of the thread I shall not repeat myself any more on the subject.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:08 PM   #51
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VB are usually 6 Mil poly that is stapled up and then your substrate is screwed through it. So your VB already has a ton of holes in it.
If that were true then we wouldn't bother with a VB. Clearly you do not understand proper VB installation.

While it is true screws puncture the VB, the VB is tightly sandwiched between the the back of the drywall and the stud which creates very close to a positive seal around the screw holes. As for staples... a properly erected VB will contain as few as possible and the staples that do exist are sealed with tuck tape. Indeed I just finished a VB in a small addition and in roughly 1000 square feet of VB, less than 30 or so staples were used. A properly installed VB will be like one continuous sheet of poly on the entire perimeter of the house (floor VB extending out and tuck taped to the wall VB, wall VB extending out and tuck taped to the ceiling VB.... and so on.

The poly itself is an advantage as it stretches and flexes when the more solid parts (ie; shower walls) don't.

Last edited by Bob Sanders; 09-11-2014 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:15 PM   #52
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The poly itself is an advantage as it stretches and flexes when the more solid parts (ie; shower walls) don't.
OK so that answers the question about how you're making your vapor barrier, which is poly with Tuck Tape, which is what I figured. So what I don't get is your comment about the barrier "cracking". I didn't understand what you meant by that, and how could the "slightest" movement in the walls cause that? There is at least a tiny amount of flex in the poly.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:21 PM   #53
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So what I don't get is your comment about the barrier "cracking"
If you treat the back of the shower as part of the VB then all the shower has to do (or the wall behind it) is shift a little. This opens up a rift in your VB.

That won't happen with an independent VB. The shower can shift all it wants and the VB is still contained.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:22 PM   #54
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You know what my point was
Not really. It seems that you like lots of seams, like you see in some of the Schluter photos, and you seem to like butted Kerdi on flat walls. Why you would want those things is beyond me. Maybe you don't really install Kerdi like that and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, who knows? Installing Kerdi with butt joints on flat walls makes about as much sense as breaking up your PVC pipe into little pieces and adding couplers, just because it's allowed and you know how to do it. That would be an equally dumb thing to do. Just lettin' forum readers know.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:27 PM   #55
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If you treat the back of the shower as part of the VB then all the shower has to do (or the wall behind it) is shift a little. This opens up a rift in your VB.

That won't happen with an independent VB. The shower can shift all it wants and the VB is still contained.
I'm sorry, I'm still not following.

When you say "treat the back of the shower as part of the VB", are you saying that it's connected to the rest of your VB with some kind of seam? Like there's your VB, then it reaches the shower and the back of the shower "takes over" as VB until we reach the original VB?

And it's the seams that connect these that could fail if the shower structure shifts a little?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:00 PM   #56
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I'm sorry, I'm still not following.

When you say "treat the back of the shower as part of the VB", are you saying that it's connected to the rest of your VB with some kind of seam? Like there's your VB, then it reaches the shower and the back of the shower "takes over" as VB until we reach the original VB?

And it's the seams that connect these that could fail if the shower structure shifts a little?
Maybe I misunderstood but THAT'S what I thought was being talked about here.

If that's not what you're saying and you plan on not somehow seaming the VB to the water proof substrate behind the shower (just going without any kind of VB behind the shower) then I would call that shear craziness.... especially in a bathroom with all the extra humidity. If you get any leak at all, your insulation and exterior studs gets wet.

We indecently had just that issue not too long ago in one of our units.
The shower on an exterior wall had some cracked grout. Come to find out when we got into it, humidity got past the VB because it was broken. I guess someone did a repair years ago and did not re-complete the VB. Anyway, the insulation was wet and moldy as where the studs. We ended up having to remove/rebuild the entire exterior wall. Everything had to come off... the outside stucco, the studs... yadda yadda. It was a costly job all on account of a failed VB
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:05 PM   #57
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Maybe I misunderstood but THAT'S what I thought was being talked about here.

If that's not what you're saying and you plan on not somehow seaming the VB to the water proof substrate behind the shower...
No, it wasn't me talking about that.... I am just listening in on the conversation and was curious.

It just seemed to me that with a poly VB - and perhaps a polyurethane sealant to join it to the shower ??? - that there would be enough play in that so it wouldn't split with a small amount of shower movement. But I don't know, I'm just asking. Personally, it never would have occurred to me to try this to begin with.
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:55 AM   #58
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If that were true then we wouldn't bother with a VB. Clearly you do not understand proper VB installation.

While it is true screws puncture the VB, the VB is tightly sandwiched between the the back of the drywall and the stud which creates very close to a positive seal around the screw holes. As for staples... a properly erected VB will contain as few as possible and the staples that do exist are sealed with tuck tape. Indeed I just finished a VB in a small addition and in roughly 1000 square feet of VB, less than 30 or so staples were used. A properly installed VB will be like one continuous sheet of poly on the entire perimeter of the house (floor VB extending out and tuck taped to the wall VB, wall VB extending out and tuck taped to the ceiling VB.... and so on.

The poly itself is an advantage as it stretches and flexes when the more solid parts (ie; shower walls) don't.
No I understand it all right. I understand that it can cause mold. I am sure back when it was considered proper to install in a basement you would have told me that I don't understand it then either. But we now know not to install in a basement do to breath-ability. (Which is different than air leakage).
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Old 09-12-2014, 11:28 AM   #59
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No I understand it all right. I understand that it can cause mold. I am sure back when it was considered proper to install in a basement you would have told me that I don't understand it then either. But we now know not to install in a basement do to breath-ability. (Which is different than air leakage).
Basements are a different ball game. One side of your wall must be breathable to avoid mold. This is why you use a house wrap like Tyvek on the outside. It allows water vapor to dissipate. However in a basement the outside of the wall for obvious reasons is not that breathable. Using a VB could cause problems.

Quote:
(Tyvek)
A House Wrap Engineered for Superior Performance

Unique material science helps prevent the infiltration of air and water, but lets water vapor escape to prevent rot and mold inside walls
http://www.dupont.com/products-and-s...ouse-wrap.html

We are not talking about basements though. This is a 2nd floor bathroom so try hard as you can to stick to the topic.

Look, it's pretty simple.... Humidity diminishes the r value of your insulation. That's a fact. A VB's soul and entire purpose is to protect as best as possible the insulation from the humidity within the house so that it can perform at it's peak design levels. If the VB is incomplete at any point then it is rendered pretty much useless as humidity is allowed to attack that section of insulation.

Mold is a different issue entirely and has nothing to do with the VB but rather an improper install of something else, be it a shower stall, vent... what ever. If such things are improperly installed then you will see mold regardless of the VB.

You really need to educate yourself in this area because you do not seem to understand basic building concepts.
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Old 09-12-2014, 11:47 AM   #60
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Sorry Bob but it is you who need to educate yourself. There it's plenty of building science behind the position that a VB is not needed in most applications and climate. Here's a couple to start you off on.

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-b...rrier-Probably
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