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Old 09-10-2014, 10:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPro View Post
The properties of wood are far different than drywall. Do me a favor. Soak some drywall in water and a 2x4 block, then get back to me. If there were better products I would recommend using them. All of my water proofing is designed to keep the moisture away from the wood.
And all of mine is designed to keep moisture away from drywall. If wood gets wet, it will mold or rot. If drywall gets wet, it will mold. You either trust your waterproofing or you don't. Neither wood nor drywall are good in wet areas, so make sure they don't get wet. Then either are fine.

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I find it funny that you talk about manufacturers instructions yet are telling people that they don't need to tape and corner as the manufacturer instructs. There is a reason you seam Kerdi the way they instruct.
You have a problem understanding something simple that I wrote. Schluter does not instruct that Kerdi needs more seams. They instruct that any seams used need to be overlapped 2". That is all.

The fewer the seams in virtually any type of construction, the better. It is better to wrap Kerdi through a corner than to use a seam there. Seams just take time and money and add one more link in the chain to potentially fail. Obviously you can't use a single sheet of Kerdi to cover your entire shower, but you can certainly reduce the number of seams you use.

In this installation, the first sheet of Kerdi is installed with no seams, as opposed to using 3 separate sheets lapped with Kerdi Band in the corners, which is acceptable but not as good in terms of best building practices.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:57 PM   #32
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You have a problem understanding something simple that I wrote. Schluter does not instruct that Kerdi needs more seams. They instruct that any seams used need to be overlapped 2". That is all.

That's actually not all. It does say that you can use Kerdi Ban...just saying words matter, when you say that is all, you should really make sure that...That is all.

The fewer the seams in virtually any type of construction, the better. It is better to wrap Kerdi through a corner than to use a seam there. Seams just take time and money and add one more link in the chain to potentially fail. Obviously you can't use a single sheet of Kerdi to cover your entire shower, but you can certainly reduce the number of seams you use.

Interesting thought...but you fail for consistency. Either you trust your system or your don't. Schulter states that Kerdi Ban is an acceptable practice, and in fact, use it as the example in their videos.

But don't trust me. This is from Schulter's Kerdi installation instructions:

Seams in the membrane are constructed by
overlapping the edges by 2" (50 mm) with
unmodified thin-set mortar or by abutting
adjacent sheets and installing KERDI-BAND
with unmodified thin-set mortar, centered
over the joint.


In this installation, the first sheet of Kerdi is installed with no seams, as opposed to using 3 separate sheets lapped with Kerdi Band in the corners, which is acceptable but not as good in terms of best building practices.
Got to say that I find it a bit confusing that you are aloud the benefit of "best practice" and I am not. I find it inconsistent to say adding a joint is adding a point of failure, but also tell use the whole "trust your waterproofing method" argument. You can't have it both ways. Either CBU is best practice as well as wrapping corners or it's they are not. If Schulter approves the method and it is installed properly then you have no worries about points of failure. You have to trust your waterproofing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:02 AM   #33
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And all of mine is designed to keep moisture away from drywall. If wood gets wet, it will mold or rot. If drywall gets wet, it will mold. You either trust your waterproofing or you don't. Neither wood nor drywall are good in wet areas, so make sure they don't get wet. Then either are fine.
LOL!
I would imagine ChiTownPro would have a big problem with my shower:

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Old 09-11-2014, 06:56 AM   #34
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Got to say that I find it a bit confusing that you are aloud the benefit of "best practice" and I am not. I find it inconsistent to say adding a joint is adding a point of failure, but also tell use the whole "trust your waterproofing method" argument.
I didn't say a seam adds a point of failure. I said it's a potential point of failure. Seams can be done correctly, but to do so takes time and money. This is a basic concept in the building trades. Don't add unnecessary joints. Don't add unnecessary connections. Don't add unnecessary seams. All experienced tradesmen should know this. This is construction 101.

Once you have installed your system correctly, whether it be plumbing, electrical, or structural, you have to trust it. What this means is that you assume that the breaker will trip at 20 amps, so you don't use 10g wire where 12g is called for. You assume that your drain will let water flow away without leaking, so you don't coat your PVC pipes with extra waterproofing. You assume your floor will hold you up, so you don't add extraneous bracing. This doesn't mean accidents or mistakes never happen. It means there's a standard to follow with reasonable expectations for time and money.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:06 AM   #35
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I didn't say a seam adds a point of failure. I said it's a potential point of failure. Seams can be done correctly, but to do so takes time and money. This is a basic concept in the building trades. Don't add unnecessary joints. Don't add unnecessary connections. Don't add unnecessary seams. All experienced tradesmen should know this. This is construction 101.

Once you have installed your system correctly, whether it be plumbing, electrical, or structural, you have to trust it. What this means is that you assume that the breaker will trip at 20 amps, so you don't use 10g wire where 12g is called for. You assume that your drain will let water flow away without leaking, so you don't coat your PVC pipes with extra waterproofing. You assume your floor will hold you up, so you don't add extraneous bracing. This doesn't mean accidents or mistakes never happen. It means there's a standard to follow with reasonable expectations for time and money.
Now we are splitting hairs and trying to diminish my argument and point by trying to insinuate I don't know construction 101. Addition points or potential additional points are the same thing. Engineers use the terms interchangeably. A point of failure does not mean that it has failed. It just means a point that could fail. Again, you advocate not being silly, but keep on diving right in to the silly pool.

Again, you stated that you have to trust your system. Schluter doesn't see Kerdi Ban as too many seams or they wouldn't recommend it. I am not saying that you have to use it, but if you trust your system like you say, then there is no need to worry about additional points of failure.

I am saying that I recognize what you are saying and see points of failure on every system, so why not install something that won't add to the failure. Why not add CBU and never have to worry about the substrate molding, mildewing, crumbling, swelling....and so on?

And make note of how I am not attacking you personally or insinuating you don't know construction 101. Let's keep the discussion about the topic and not ourselves. Shall we?
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:03 AM   #36
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Thanks about the detailed PROs and CONs for each way.
I will use the Kerabond thin-set - seems pricey but my bathroom is small so I should not need more than 2 50lbs bags. I will tile the tub surround all the way up to the ceiling and will install a shower panel.

I will start working on it this weekend. Focus will be the plumbing. Since I'll be swapping toilet and sink I will need to do some minor plumbing adjustments. I will transition from the copper to CPVC pipe for the water supply and PVC for the drain. That should hopefully not take too long so I can start putting on the drywall after I removed the old vinyl floor and insulated the exterior wall.

Now here is a question: For the exterior wall - the part that will be covered by tile in the shower (and also covered with the Kerdi membrane). Now the Kerdi membrane is impermeable. If I install insulation with a vapor barrier as well, does that mean that condensation will get "trapped" in between? Can I use regular insulation with vapor barrier attached or should I use insulation without a vapor barrier?
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:11 PM   #37
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You MUST use vapor barrier. Wet interior walls is one thing but wet or moist insulation is a whole new ball game. The wetter the insulation is, the more r value is lost. The vapor barrier should be whole and complete throughout the entire exterior wall and should attached to the vapor barriers in the other walls. It should be for all intents and purposes one whole and complete sleeve throughout the perimeter of the house. What you do inside of that, be it bathroom bedroom or kitchen is a different story. Trying to integrate a shower/bath as part of the vapor barrier is just asking for trouble.
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:52 PM   #38
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That's what I thought - just checking!
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:56 PM   #39
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LOL!
I would imagine ChiTownPro would have a big problem with my shower:

Why? The proper material and sealant were used and I am assuming a VB behind the paneling. Steam rooms are primarily built out of wood. I have not mentioned wood at all, other than to point out it is has vastly different properties over drywall and is a poor comparison.

Your imagine wrong sir. Try not to read too much into a few posts and leap to conclusions.
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:01 PM   #40
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If you are using a waterproof membrane on the interior side you do not need a VB. However your code may vary. I believe that Cananananada requires a VB on the EXT side.

You are on the right line of thinking. Any moisture will stop at the barrier. Condensation is the only other moisture and if it is forming you have a problem that VB on the exterior side will not help, but, as you have pointed out, will create a larger problem, trapped moisture.

If you have condensation, that means you have air movement.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:27 PM   #41
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Again, you stated that you have to trust your system. Schluter doesn't see Kerdi Ban as too many seams or they wouldn't recommend it. I am not saying that you have to use it, but if you trust your system like you say, then there is no need to worry about additional points of failure.
It's not Kerdi Ban, it's Kerdi Band. And just the fact that they make it doesn't mean it makes too many seams. Sometimes you need seams. They make it for those seams. For the rest, you should reduce the number of seams you use. Schluter doesn't recommend using more seams than you need.


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Why not add CBU and never have to worry about the substrate molding, mildewing, crumbling, swelling....and so on?
Maybe you don't understand how cement board works. It's not waterproof. It's water resistant. If it gets wet, it won't disintegrate. But it still holds water and passes that water along to the structure. So if you use cement board YOU STILL HAVE TO WORRY about molding, rotting, etc. If your waterproofing fails, cement board does not save you.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:43 PM   #42
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Now here is a question: For the exterior wall - the part that will be covered by tile in the shower (and also covered with the Kerdi membrane). Now the Kerdi membrane is impermeable. If I install insulation with a vapor barrier as well, does that mean that condensation will get "trapped" in between? Can I use regular insulation with vapor barrier attached or should I use insulation without a vapor barrier?
Depends what you mean by "vapor barrier". Some people mean the paper on the insulation. Some people mean plastic sheet. So yes, it's possible to do things incorrectly and literally rot your walls by trapping moisture in there.

I would research more
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...sion-retarders
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:28 PM   #43
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If you have condensation, that means you have air movement.
On that I will agree. There SHOULD be no condensation and if there is, it only because things are not air tight (improperly done).

In Canada it is imperative an independent VB goes up and it is sealed TIGHT. Our Winter temperatures can hit the -40's and at those temps ANY humidity in the house will get sucked through the walls if permitted. Of course it has to go through the insulation first which diminishes the r value.

Again, I do not advise any part of the bath/shower to be used as part of the VB. Even if there is a SLIGHT shift in the wall a crack will appear in your multi piece VB, and that crack renders a large section of the VB totally useless and may as well not be there at all.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:32 PM   #44
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Again, I do not advise any part of the bath/shower to be used as part of the VB. Even if there is a SLIGHT shift in the wall a crack will appear in your multi piece VB, and that crack renders a large section of the VB totally useless and may as well not be there at all.
I'm not sure what you mean. What is the vapor barrier made of that you have in mind?
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:56 PM   #45
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It's not Kerdi Ban, it's Kerdi Band. And just the fact that they make it doesn't mean it makes too many seams. Sometimes you need seams. They make it for those seams. For the rest, you should reduce the number of seams you use. Schluter doesn't recommend using more seams than you need.

I love it how you at least are consistent on your ocd analness. I know it's not Kerdi Ban. I will repeat what I said on the other thread. I read a thread that you picked apart the use of the word Mat and Kerdi and you had a hissy over it. Again, avoiding any real questions or wholes pointed out in your logic.

Schulter recommends two methods: a 2" overlap or the use of Kerdi Band. Of course they don't recommend more seams than needed. Neither did I. Maybe in your opinion, but the manufacturer thinks that using Kerdi Band over the seams of individually cut pieces is just the right amount.

Again, you like to twist and exaggerate what has been said to bolster your silly arguments.



Maybe you don't understand how cement board works. It's not waterproof. It's water resistant. If it gets wet, it won't disintegrate. But it still holds water and passes that water along to the structure. So if you use cement board YOU STILL HAVE TO WORRY about molding, rotting, etc. If your waterproofing fails, cement board does not save you.
Okay...let's see...please quote me where I said it was waterproof....yeah...didn't think so. What I said is it handles it different and that it does not absorb it like drywall. If you reduce seams to reduce the risk of failure, you acknowledge the possibility of failure. I do as well. So I don't use something that will soak up water and won't mold or mildew. Which have been my real arguments.

Another example of twisting and changing my points. I can do this for a long time.

Like I said it takes a long time to get to structure. Drywall greatly increases the rate of transfer and will mold very quickly, long before the studs even get the hint of moisture.
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