Very Slow Gas Leak Is Okay - Plumbing - DIY Home Improvement | DIYChatroom
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Plumbing

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Display Modes
Old 07-17-2015, 04:59 AM   #16
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Question

What about sealed attics with gas lines in them?


What about the homes that are being constructed with sealed attics and spray foam insulation (like Icynene) when gas lines are installed in the attic (only the lines, not any equipment)? These attics purposely have zero venting and air circulation. Even though open cell SPF is air and water permeable, the roof is well sealed with peel & stick, so there is no air getting through there. How can the hazard of a potential gas leak be mitigated if venting cannot be installed? Install an AC vent and return?
Suzanne99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-17-2015, 08:39 AM   #17
Super Moderator
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 20,340
Rewards Points: 31,982
Blog Entries: 11
Default


6 year old thread. I hope the issue is resolved by now.
joed is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-18-2015, 10:25 AM   #18
Master Plumber
 
Javiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 1,612
Rewards Points: 1,012
Default


interviewing plumbers ? on a gas leak repair or extension how can you interview someone on something you absolutely no nothing about, This is one of the reasons i've been staying away from giving advice on these DYI sites the things some people come up with is mind blowing frustrating and just plain stupid. why do people beat around the bush with nonsense. its not a leaking hose bibb its gas!!! a gas leak call a licensed gas contractor, get an evaluation not happy get a second does it match with the first? get 3 bids 2 should be within a few dollars go with lower of the higher 2 get it in writing and get it done. these are the people that get their house blown up from under them while sitting on line wasting time.
__________________


Experience is Knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it

http://www.americandrain.net
Javiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-18-2015, 10:42 AM   #19
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 14,740
Rewards Points: 24,862
Blog Entries: 2
Default


"Good Enough". Not good enough.

Makes me glad I did my own plumbing.

Just a quick additional note.

The leak down spec of say 5 PSI in 30 min for a system pressurized to say 20 PSI can get you in trouble.

Say you have 200' total of gas pipe. 5 PSI in 30 min? That is quite a bit of gas.

Say you have 10' total of gas pipe. That same 5 PSI is not nearly as much gas....much smaller leak.

I'm the camp of 0 PSI loss over 24 hours.
__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 01:53 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,701
Rewards Points: 1,948
Default


Pressure will fluctuate with temperature.
Ghostmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ghostmaker For This Useful Post:
SeniorSitizen (07-18-2015)
Old 07-18-2015, 04:59 PM   #21
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

very slow gas leaks


The gas pipes were installed by the most-recommended installer in town, that's all he does. It has passed the test. My worry is that at some point in time, most pipes will leak to some degree, hopefully in minute amounts. If the attic is tightly sealed with SPF (there are no windows or doors to open other than one access, also sealed), then gas will accumulate if it has no place to go. I'm not sure I could sleep at night, wondering if there's a time bomb up there. I will install sensors for sure, but not sure if I want to stake my life on them. I'm just hoping there is a way.
Suzanne99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 05:04 PM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 5,918
Rewards Points: 582
Default


very slow gas leak ..NO ITS NOT OK... NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE.. UNLESS YOU DON'T MIND PUTTING YOUR FAMILY AT RISK..
ben's plumbing is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ben's plumbing For This Useful Post:
Suzanne99 (12-09-2015)
Old 07-18-2015, 05:10 PM   #23
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12,758
Rewards Points: 6,518
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzanne99 View Post
The gas pipes were installed by the most-recommended installer in town, that's all he does. It has passed the test. My worry is that at some point in time, most pipes will leak to some degree, hopefully in minute amounts. If the attic is tightly sealed with SPF (there are no windows or doors to open other than one access, also sealed), then gas will accumulate if it has no place to go. I'm not sure I could sleep at night, wondering if there's a time bomb up there. I will install sensors for sure, but not sure if I want to stake my life on them. I'm just hoping there is a way.
Don't worry. Your very tightly SPF sealed attic is going to leak LONG before seamless gas pipe and connections that passed the test will leak.
SeniorSitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 05:13 PM   #24
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12,758
Rewards Points: 6,518
Default


BTY, the next time you hire a plumber to do black iron gas piping ask him if he will be using seamed or seamless pipe.
SeniorSitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2015, 11:03 AM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,045
Rewards Points: 1,910
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzanne99 View Post
The gas pipes were installed by the most-recommended installer in town, that's all he does. It has passed the test. My worry is that at some point in time, most pipes will leak to some degree, hopefully in minute amounts. If the attic is tightly sealed with SPF (there are no windows or doors to open other than one access, also sealed), then gas will accumulate if it has no place to go. I'm not sure I could sleep at night, wondering if there's a time bomb up there. I will install sensors for sure, but not sure if I want to stake my life on them. I'm just hoping there is a way.

Suzanne, your attic should not be completely sealed. If it is sealed from the outside envirniment then it is conditioned space and should exchange air from within the house. If it sealed from the inside environment then the attic should be ventilated to the outside with proper attic vents. It should never be a static area that is sealed from both the outside and inside. All space needs air exchange.
jogr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2015, 12:07 PM   #26
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 4
Default

risk of gas leak


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzanne99 View Post
What about the homes that are being constructed with sealed attics and spray foam insulation (like Icynene) when gas lines are installed in the attic (only the lines, not any equipment)? These attics purposely have zero venting and air circulation. Even though open cell SPF is air and water permeable, the roof is well sealed with peel & stick, so there is no air getting through there. How can the hazard of a potential gas leak be mitigated if venting cannot be installed? Install an AC vent and return?
Suzanne,

I have the same concern you have. Did you ever get a satisfactory answer regarding how to reduce the risk? My wife and I bought a house in Florida last year and it has several flexible gas lines connected to a gas distribution manifold in one section of the attic. The attic appears to be totally sealed with the spray foam type of insulation. I have talked to the builder, gas company, roofer, plumber, etc. and no one has a solution or even seems to recognize the risk. I experienced a tragedy a number of years ago that resulted in several deaths from a gas leak in a metal building without attic ventilation. The risk is real. I'm hoping you found a solution.

cwatkins
cwatkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 08:18 PM   #27
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default


Here is the solution I came up with for my ICF, SPF sealed attic, tight house in humid Florida for the gas/toxic accumulation, air quality, humidity, and air pressure problems (you must address air quality, toxic pollution accumulation, air pressure, humidity, and temperature all together as a system) :
1) Install a fan/damper/vent in the peak of the attic to exhaust attic air periodically or continuously to the outside. Natural gas and humid steam rise and accumulate up thetre. This is not expensive, even a bath fan/damper in the wall with dampered vent to the outside would work.
2) Install a 6" duct in the AC supply plenum (in the attic) to open into the attic for conditioned air circulation and to provide make up air equal to the air being exhausted so there will be no negative pressure in the attic or house below. An SPF attic is close to the same temp as the house, so this should not load down the AC AFTER #3 below.
3) Install a Honeywell DR120 ventilating dehumidifier (so the fresh air intake is dehumidified), then fed into the AC supply plenum for distribution to the house and attic. Set it so it runs continuously, even when the AC is NOT running - this is VERY important. We have many, many days when the AC or heat are not running, and just the air handler fan alone does not dehumidify, it only moves air, which is only a minor help.
4) Install plug-in sensors for natural gas/smoke in the light socket/receptacles across the high parts of the attic (use the CO/smoke at the low levels), and plug in 'listeners' in the receptacles in the house below so we will be sure to hear the siren in the attic if it goes off (which are quite loud anyway). If you have any fireplaces, even the sealed ones like I have, the duct pipes go through the attic and these are more prone to leaks than the gas pipes, so gas codes will likely require venting. This will cover it.
5) I will also install a separate vent/fan/damper in a central, lower area of the house below that will exhaust the lower level pollution (CO, CO2, propane, particulates, etc. that sink) to the outside. The stack effect can keep this pollution from dissipating so circulation at the bottom is a good idea. Again, a bath fan in the wall and damper at an outside vent works, but the units actually made for this are cheaper and quieter (check sound ratings).
6) I'm also installing a new AC unit that is multi-stage with air handler that is variable speed so it runs slowly and more often, which will help remove more humidity. Do not get the fresh air intake option for it though, the humid air coming into the AC can cause mold in the AC and duct work! The Honeywell unit is like a small AC, it has coils so it dehumidifies the air going into the AC plenum. I'm also installing returns in every room.
7) Installing a separate vent/fan/damper to provide make-up air for the gas range hood since it is 52,000 BTU so the hood has to be min. 520 cfm. The fan exhaust also goes through the attic so there is another potential source of pollution up there.
8) Installing an RH and barostat in addition to a thermostat so I can monitor the house conditions (even from a Iphone). Set a good range of sensitivity, and you can wire them to your exhaust systems to come on as programmed.
9) Make sure you add up all the cfms that your house will exhaust (bath fans, range hood, etc.) to ensure you provide close to equal make-up air to keep the pressure slightly positive. Put timers on the bath fans so they won't suck all the air out of your house if left on.
10)DO NOT install pass-thru vents in your house ceiling to the attic, this will force you to get an ignition barrier sprayed onto your SPF at the roof deck. As long as there is no direct attic-house communication (which is against code right now), the ceiling drywall is your ignition barrier.
11) Make sure you can control your vent dampers to the outside so you can shut them off if smoke, lawn sprays, etc. are in the area.
12) Learn to minimize use of scented candles, chemicals and sprays in the house because the fumes will stick around a long time.
I can give you more details if I have't scared you off yet. As you have also found, there are NO 'systems engineers' for houses. It's super annoying to constantly be told to consult your 'professional.' There is NO SUCH THING (related to this) readily available to us lay folks. I've gleaned bits and pieces of data from lots of good people, but no one person is an expert in this whole thing. The good ones are in the same boat I am, looking for solutions. If anyone has another data point for me, or if I've misunderstood something, by all means please feed me good data to use!
BTW - you might want to check the SPF, it may not have been installed correctly, which can cause you huge problems. I'd check the brand too.
Suzanne99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 09:47 PM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12,758
Rewards Points: 6,518
Default


When you find an exhaust fan that's explosion proof from these potential gas leaks let us know so all of us can get one.
SeniorSitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2015, 04:31 AM   #29
An old Tradesmen
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 38,886
Rewards Points: 9,496
Default


Foamed attics are not suppose to be vented. They are only supposed to be conditioned.
__________________
When posting in certain forums, knowing your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions.
beenthere is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2015, 04:16 PM   #30
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default


Not openly vented to the outside, that's true, it's all about sealing the outside air out, that's why I'm only circulating and exhausting air out, via dampered vent so outside air does NOT get in. Sealed attics are great for energy savings but they have been creating a major air quality problem, ask the IAQ engineers. Toxics accumulate up there, especially if you have gas ducts for fireplaces (even sealed ones) and pipes, range hood vents, material off-gas, etc. running through the attic. Gas codes require attics that have these to be ventilated. You can't let that stale, polluted air get back into the house so it has to go out. Even if there aren't any gas ducts or pipes up there, you still need air circulation and exhaust for air quality, or it will get into the house and cause problems. If I do get a gas leak, and all pipes/ducts will leak to some degree, the conditioned fresh air coming in and the exhaust fan circulating and pushing it out should keep any gas fumes from accumulating to the point of combustion from any sparks from the fan motor, can lights, etc. I'm not saying this a perfect solution, just the best one, or the lesser of the evils, that I can come up with, that keeps all the elements within balance.
Suzanne99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shower leak (what else) Old home, new owner... Rubbertree Plumbing 8 09-25-2009 01:26 PM
Air conditioning slow leak... ashton HVAC 19 06-04-2009 12:58 AM
Leak in incoming supply line under slab playstationdork Plumbing 13 08-05-2008 08:18 AM
Slow leak from shut off valve Topdog Plumbing 12 06-05-2008 12:02 AM
Cathedral Ceiling - mystery roof leak kamadus Roofing/Siding 4 05-06-2008 01:18 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts