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Old 08-22-2017, 06:34 AM   #16
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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Originally Posted by hkstroud View Post
Jeff,

I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Are saying that you add some pipe to the drain coming up, put on a 90, then put on a piece of horizontal pipe and connect the P trap arm to that horizontal?
The existing vertical 1 1/2" pipe that is coming through the floor of the sink base is usually copper. I extend that vertical pipe using a fernco to connect the existing copper and the new 1 1/2" PVC such that the end of the new PVC is roughly 12 inches above the floor of the cabinet. I then install a PVC 90 ell, a short piece of 1 1/2" PVC (aimed towards the sink tailpiece) and then a 1 1/2" trap adapter.

I then connect the new P-trap to the bottom of the tailpiece and the horizontal arm of the P-trap fits into the trap adapter.

I am not sure I am explaining it clearly. If you need a picture, let me know, and i will post one a little later today.

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Old 08-22-2017, 07:58 AM   #17
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


I think I understand but send drawing.

You may do this for convenience or other reasons but if I understand correctly, you still have an "S" trap.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:25 AM   #18
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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I think I understand but send drawing.

You may do this for convenience or other reasons but if I understand correctly, you still have an "S" trap.
Waiting to go into a meetingnow. send a picture later, but it is no different than if the vertical drain came up in the 2x4 wall behind the sink, turned via a 90 to come thru the wall then a stub of 1 1/2" and a trap adapter.

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Old 08-22-2017, 06:32 PM   #19
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


But that drain pipe coming up through the wall continues on as vent.

An "S" trap is a trap that turns down before it reaches the vent, regardless of its shape.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:11 PM   #20
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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Originally Posted by jeffmattero76 View Post
The existing vertical 1 1/2" pipe that is coming through the floor of the sink base is usually copper. I extend that vertical pipe using a fernco to connect the existing copper and the new 1 1/2" PVC such that the end of the new PVC is roughly 12 inches above the floor of the cabinet. I then install a PVC 90 ell, a short piece of 1 1/2" PVC (aimed towards the sink tailpiece) and then a 1 1/2" trap adapter.

I then connect the new P-trap to the bottom of the tailpiece and the horizontal arm of the P-trap fits into the trap adapter.

I am not sure I am explaining it clearly. If you need a picture, let me know, and i will post one a little later today.

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Originally Posted by jeffmattero76 View Post
Waiting to go into a meetingnow. send a picture later, but it is no different than if the vertical drain came up in the 2x4 wall behind the sink, turned via a 90 to come thru the wall then a stub of 1 1/2" and a trap adapter.

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You are describing s traps that are no longer code compliant because the vent- if it exists is below the trap weir
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:23 AM   #21
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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You are describing s traps that are no longer code compliant because the vent- if it exists is below the trap weir
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkstroud View Post
But that drain pipe coming up through the wall continues on as vent.

An "S" trap is a trap that turns down before it reaches the vent, regardless of its shape.






I am in suburban Philadelphia and I have no idea why, but the codes here must be different than many other places in this country. I have mentioned a few times in the past that I rarely have seen the type of venting that seems to be code in many other places. I believe what we are allowed to do is called "wet venting" when the fixture is within certain distances from the main stack. I am not a professional plumber but I have done plenty of plumbing on my rentals. Below are before and after pictures of what I am describing. Townships have seen this many times and never brought up any issues with it.



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Old 08-23-2017, 07:35 AM   #22
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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Jeff, even though you are using a P trap, your configuration is still an S trap. If it is allowed in your locality, it would be better to replace that 90 that turns down with a T and extend a pipe up to a AAV.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:47 AM   #23
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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Jeff, even though you are using a P trap, your configuration is still an S trap. If it is allowed in your locality, it would be better to replace that 90 that turns down with a T and extend a pipe up to a AAV.
Rj - please educate me... If the sink does not exhibit any gurgling or other issues, what is the purpose of that AAV?


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Old 08-23-2017, 10:33 AM   #24
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


It will prevent the trap weir from being siphoned dry and allowing sewer gases to enter.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:55 PM   #25
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


Jeff
That is definitely an "S" trap. That is not wet venting. Chances are that it is permitted because that is how the build was plumbed many years ago.

If that drain pipe going to the basement ever gets completely filled with water, the water going down the pipe will pull the all the water out of the trap.

Same principle as when you use to siphon gas out of your father's car when you were a teenager. (Of course maybe you never learned to do that)

Because you have a 1 1/2" sink drain and a 2" pipe (it appears) that may not ever happen.

Installing an AAV will allow air to be pulled in instead of sucking the trap dry.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:58 PM   #26
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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Jeff
That is definitely an "S" trap. That is not wet venting. Chances are that it is permitted because that is how the build was plumbed many years ago.

If that drain pipe going to the basement ever gets completely filled with water, the water going down the pipe will pull the all the water out of the trap.

Same principle as when you use to siphon gas out of your father's car when you were a teenager. (Of course maybe you never learned to do that)

Because you have a 1 1/2" sink drain and a 2" pipe (it appears) that may not ever happen.

Installing an AAV will allow air to be pulled in instead of sucking the trap dry.
Thanks to all of you for the education. I have a few new wrinkles in my brain. It just amazes me that i have only once seen the type of venting that everyone here seems to refer to. Except gor that one exception, every drain from every sink I have ever worked on used an ell after the trap rather than a tee that had a vent pipe attached. I see pictures in plumbing books I have read that all show the type of venting you all reference and always wondered why i had never seen that type of drain/venting. Was what I am doing EVER code correct? All of the houses I work on were built in the 50s and 60s.

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Old 08-23-2017, 05:00 PM   #27
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


One more question... With the type of venting you all are talking about, is there any limit as to how far the fixture can be from the main stack?

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Old 08-23-2017, 08:01 PM   #28
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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All of the houses I work on were built in the 50s and 60s.
That is the time frame during which "S" traps were determined to not be a good idea.
There are a number of things that determine whether or not an "S" trap gets sucked dry.
Don't worry about it. As long as a "S" trap doesn't get sucked dry it functions just fine.

The AAV makes sure that the trap doesn't get sucked dry.

Apparently because of the age original plumbing the inspector can't make you put in a P trap which would require different venting. If you were to replumb the entire house he probably would.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:30 PM   #29
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


His pipe does not look as if it is 2 inch. If it was 2 inch ID it would be considered combination drain and vent and code compliant. I sort of go with the inspector either does not know the plumbing code or does not care.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:39 PM   #30
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Re: Under Kitchen Sink Possible Reconfiguration


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His pipe does not look as if it is 2 inch. If it was 2 inch ID it would be considered combination drain and vent and code compliant. I sort of go with the inspector either does not know the plumbing code or does not care.
You guys not in the trades would be amazed at the number of inspectors who do not know the codes, nor do they care. I am lucky to have two State Fire Marshalls that do know the codes and do care. Both are very helpful in my work.
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