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Old 12-11-2016, 06:00 PM   #1
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Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


I am currently remodelling my kitchen and would like to re-route my kitchen drain. I am a rookie in terms of plumbing knowledge.

My existing kitchen drain is 1-1/2" copper and goes through a kitchen base cabinet, rendering that space pretty much useless. I will like to place a cabinet right where the existing drain is. The sink will be at the same location as before.

I would like to have the horizontal run in the basement, and just cap the copper pipe in the kitchen.

I have the following questions:

1) I am planning on running ABS similar to this. Do I have the correct parts? Will I have enough ventilation? (I will cap the ends of the wyes)

2) Is this layout ok for under the sink? (I took this photo from IKEA).

3) Can MPS be enough to sweat and solder a 1-1/2" CU fitting onto the existing copper run? Any tricks or hints? I just have a standard flint start(?) nozzle.

Thanks. Any help, direction or guidance is greatly appreciated.
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Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help-img_20161211_170718.jpg  
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Old 12-11-2016, 07:04 PM   #2
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Quote:
1) I am planning on running ABS similar to this. Do I have the correct parts? Will I have enough ventilation? (I will cap the ends of the wyes)
I assume you are asking about how you have the piping that is to go under the floor? Why would you use wyes and then cap them off. If you were going pipe like that just use 45's. But you don't want to pipe like that and you can't pipe like that.


Quote:
2) Is this layout ok for under the sink? (I took this photo from IKEA).
No. That is an "S" trap. You can't have an "S" trap. An "S" trap is a trap that the drain line turns down before it reaches a vent. Can't do that .

Quote:
3) Can MPS be enough to sweat and solder a 1-1/2" CU fitting onto the existing copper run? Any tricks or hints? I just have a standard flint start(?) nozzle.
What is MPS? Is that MAP gas. MAP gas is actually hotter than acetylene.
I am assuming that you have a 1 1/2" copper drain.

Open up the wall where the drain pipe comes out of the wall so we can see what's in there. I doubt that there is enough room in the wall for the two pipe to cross.

What I suspect you will want to do is cut the drain pipe in the basement and where it ties into the vent pipe in the wall. Then using a rubber coupling and ABS or PVC pipe over to the new sink drain location. Come up through the wall. At the trap height put in a sanitary tee. Out of the top of the sanitary tee pipe, up above the sink level turn and go over to the vent pipe. Connect to the vent pipe with a rubber coupling. I know that they make rubber 90's, pretty sure they make rubber tee's.
Put a rubber cap where you cut the drain pipe at the tee in the wall.

You could try doing the same thing with copper but 1 1/2" copper is expensive and soldering may be a little tedious for the novice.
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Old 12-11-2016, 07:34 PM   #3
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Cut the copper pipe where shown and remove. Have a piece of black 3/4 pipe about 12 to 16" long handy. Heat the tee, primarily at the bottom joint. When solder begins to run, stick the black pipe in the tee and rotate. If the vent pipe just goes straight up thru the roof it should also turn with the tee. If not, you will have to heat enough to loosen it from tee. That should be doable with your torch and skill level. It is a vent only so a small leak won't be critical.
That will save you a rubber tee and make a better cnnection.

Repipe with ABS or PVC (shown in green)
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:35 AM   #4
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Thanks hkstroud. I will need to totally rethink this.

The problem with the main stack location in the basement. It is in tight quarters with some electrical cables. I am worried I might accidentally heat the cables.
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:54 AM   #5
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Those couplings look an awful like PVC couplings. The pipes above look like galvanized not copper.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:13 AM   #6
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


It's copper. I sanded it down to verify. The previous homeowner kindly painted all the copper pipes as a housewarming gift to me.

For the main 1-1/2" stack on the left (it's has larger OD than the one on the right) how do you suggest I get around the "venting" pipe adjacent to it if I couple in the sanitary tee? I'll still need to move around the "venting" pipe to get to the drain. Any suggestions?

(And yes I meant MAP gas)

Thanks hkstroud
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:11 AM   #7
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


The drain (on the left) has to be galvanized. I would cut the drain anywhere below the coupling and convert to PVC (with rubber coupling). Take you PVC up above the bottom of the joist. There you would either put in a 45, looking at you and then a long street 90 looking at the joist. You may have to use a 45, short pipe and then 90. You may be able to use a long 90 and then long street 90. Drill thru joist with 2 1/2" hole saw 2" above the bottom of joists. Should be able to drill between electrical cable and end of joist at about same level as electrical cable or just below. You will need 2 1/2" hole saw and angle drill. Probably have to make pipe thru joist two pieces with coupling to get in.

Open up wall so we can see where drain pipe connects to vent pipe. From you drawings it appears that if you cut the drain pipes where previously shown, leaving a stub out out of the tee (for later reconnection), then heat and turned the tee. Or you could cut the vent pipe anywhere below the tee, turn the tee then reconnected the vent pipe with rubber coupling.

Last edited by hkstroud; 12-12-2016 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:33 AM   #8
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Thanks hkstroud.

I'm 99% certain they're copper pipes. I'll take photos when I'm back home from work.

I'm sort of following what you're suggesting for the drain. Is a 45 or 90 ok into the main stack? Will water flow well through the pipes ok?

I'll post more photos up when I smash down my plaster wall near the vent/drain Tee.

Thanks again!
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:41 AM   #9
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Quote:
Is a 45 or 90 ok into the main stack? Will water flow well through the pipes ok?
Yes

Quote:
I'm 99% certain they're copper pipes. I'll take photos when I'm back home from work.
Yes, please check again. Those couplings have little tabs on them just like PVC couplings. Never seen that on a galvanized or copper coupling.

Have a nice day now, ya hear.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:18 PM   #10
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


hi hkstroud,

I did what you suggested and opened up the wall a bit more. This is what I found.

You were right, the coupling has a tab on it and says "EMCO". (Still not sure if it's galvanized... does it matter?) These vent pipes are like 1". Is it possible to couple them with 1" PVC/ABS? I do not have much leeway between my wall and exterior wall without it protruding.

I drew what I believe is what you are suggesting. I am a bit worried about how to move this sanitary tee to the other side. I have a feeling I will need to heat this coupling quite a bit at both joints just to push it around.

Thanks again for all your help.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:25 PM   #11
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Yes, you have the correct idea. First question is there any possibility that the drain pipe could pass the vent pipe and still be in the wall?

Assuming that there is not, the first thing to do would be to heat the drain pipe at the tee and remove it. This is just to see how difficult it is for you to solder a pipe this size with your torch. This will tell us how to approach rotating the tee in the vent line above.

Both pipes are copper. The only way to join pipes together of different types (copper and PVC) is with rubber couplings. Nothing wrong with rubber couplings.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:28 AM   #12
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


You are correct, there is no possibility of moving the drain pipe pass the vent pipe within the wall. I have around 2" of space between the exterior and interior wall.

This was the layout before I removed the cabinets.

I'll give it a shot tonight to see if I can remove the drain pipe.
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:10 AM   #13
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Would it matter if I have a few 90 degree elbows in the vent pipe? I'd like to run it a bit lower than the current sanitary tee position so it can be hidden behind the cabinets (32-34" above grade) and not behind the current backsplash location (40").
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:28 PM   #14
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


I got the drain pipe off after 30 seconds with MAP. I think I will be able to turn the T up top.

I hope I am able to run the vent more like this configuration.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:47 PM   #15
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Re: Relocating Kitchen Drain - Help


Don't have a problem with the 90"s, just have to tie in above the top of the sink.

Let's be smart about twisting that tee. Break out some more plaster around the tee and cut the drain pipe at least 3" below the 90. Have a pipe wrench handy. You are going to have to twist the tee while it is hot. Have it adjusted to fit the top flange of the tee. Heat the bottom flange of the tee.

Note: You always heat the fitting. The hottest part of the flame is the tip of blue flame that is inside the yellow flame.

When you see the solder begin to run try to twist the tee. (Pipe wrench on the upper flange.) If the vent pipe runs straight up through the roof, you may be able to turn tee and pipe. Don't pull to much. The pipe wrench can crush the tee and pipe as copper gets soft when heated.

If you can't turn the vent pipe with the tee, you will have to heat both joints. Getting the lower joint hot then heating the upper before the lower one cools. Might not be easy.

If you can get the tee rotated with it's elbow and the stub out you left, you will be all set to connect the PVC vent pipe with a shielded rubber coupling.

After rotating the tee, have your solder ready with a nice long curl in the end. Touch solder to joint to see if joint is hot enough to melt solder. If necessary add heat. Stick your solder around to back of the tee under edge of the flange and pull around to front. Heat one side and solder the other. Repeat other side. The heat of the flange will pull the solder up into the joint. Remember heat the fitting not pipe. Yes, solder will really run uphill. Should also have wet cloth to wipe off excess solder when you are through.

Then we talk about re piping the drain in the basement.

PS
You will be stubbing out your new drain at the same level as the old drain. Mark the wall. I don't recall what the standard off the floor is.
If there is any chance that you will ever put in a deep sink you can always stub it out lower and use a longer tail pipe. Get it stubbed out to high and you are screwed.

Last edited by hkstroud; 12-13-2016 at 11:14 PM.
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