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Old 01-22-2019, 02:34 PM   #166
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


This is sounding more and more like a Socialist's idea of hot water heating: take it from everyone else.
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Old 01-22-2019, 06:00 PM   #167
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Bob22,

I never thought of this. I mean it never occurred to me that I could draw something then take a photo of it. Thanks for that tip.

On a less upbeat note, I reminded the plumber yesterday of our appointment today and advised him that if there was a problem he should let me know. He replied that he would try to be at my place. However, he did not show up at 2:30pm, as we had agreed. At 3:00 I texted him. He replied that he was too busy handling "no heat and split pipes." Meanwhile, I had already sent an email to everyone in the building, giving them a heads-up that the water Main might be shut off for a short while, in order for the plumber to do a test.

Right now, in all honesty, I'm sort of out of it and just want to chill for a while.

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Draw it on paper and take a picture of it with your cell phone or camera.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #168
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


This started happening after he put the new water heater in, right? Or did it coincide with another plumber's work?
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:58 PM   #169
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Rocky,

It was after he put the new heater in. Even if we have a crossed pipe, as he claims, the old heater worked with the crossed pipe. And he has not bothered to actually check the dip tube. At least if he could confirm that it's not the dip tube, we could cross that item off the list.

I bought my condo in 2004. The heater came with the condo. I never changed it because it did its job. My home inspector, when I bought the condo, told me that they don't make those kinds of heaters any more. They were meant to last.

I only changed it because its shutoff (the old fashioned kind, round in shape, began to leak). Now when I look back, I should never have changed the heater. I should have just changed the shutoff. But hindsight is cheap, they say.

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This started happening after he put the new water heater in, right? Or did it coincide with another plumber's work?

Last edited by stripedbass; 01-22-2019 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:22 PM   #170
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Wondering if it might be feasible to put in an electric on-demand one inside the condo and bypass all that mess and headache.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:05 PM   #171
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Quote:
Originally Posted by stripedbass View Post
Rocky,

It was after he put the new heater in. Even if we have a crossed pipe, as he claims, the old heater worked with the crossed pipe. And he has not bothered to actually check the dip tube. At least if he could confirm that it's not the dip tube, we could cross that item off the list.

I bought my condo in 2004. The heater came with the condo. I never changed it because it did its job. My home inspector, when I bought the condo, told me that they don't make those kinds of heaters any more. They were meant to last.

I only changed it because its shutoff (the old fashioned kind, round in shape, began to leak). Now when I look back, I should never have changed the heater. I should have just changed the shutoff. But hindsight is cheap, they say.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I wouldn't 2nd guess the decision to change out a relic appliance proactively under the circumstances. Changing the heater revealed a hidden issue you were unaware of.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:09 PM   #172
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


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Originally Posted by RockyMtBeerMan View Post
Wondering if it might be feasible to put in an electric on-demand one inside the condo and bypass all that mess and headache.

This still won't correct the problem of an as-yet=to=be-located cross-connection between the hot water piping and the somebody's cold water piping.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:42 AM   #173
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


I do not like how I've been treated as a customer. I don't like it that the plumber has given me the round around when it comes to the dip tube.

As unlikely as it may seem, what if the problem is the crossed pipes AND the dip tube? How does the plumber and I cross out the dip tube issue? I feel helpless when it comes to the dip tube.

Is my only choice to find the crossed pipes or nothing? If so, why did an older water heater not have this problem? Also, given what I've been through with him, I really do not feel comfortable assigning him to look for the crossed pipes. I feel that he would do it in a way that will completely exonerate him of any responsibility that he may truly have on his end. Also, what if we found and fixed the crossed pipes and the water heater still did not work? How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?

I'm considering whether a small claims court can help in my situation in any way. Or is there another way forward?

Having already paid him in good faith, I have no leverage over him. He can simply claim that he's busy or that there's nothing more he can do. Am I at his mercy and have totally no options? This is actually scary from a consumer point of view.

Last edited by stripedbass; 01-23-2019 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:05 AM   #174
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


How many ways has been suggested you can determine if the dip tube is at fault? How many of those ways have you followed to determine that?
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:35 AM   #175
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


SeniorSitizen,

For most of you on this forum, all this water heater stuff may be easy to do or understand. Unfortunately, this is not the case with me. While I'm highly appreciative of the feedback I've gotten on this forum (which has truly been amazing), I really think that the plumber should do this trouble-shooting himself. If I tamper with the heater I could do something that gives him an excuse to void any warranty I have.

More than a month after he installed the heater he has not done anything in front of me to rule out the possibility that the dip tube is part of the problem. This works well for his interests because it totally clears him of any responsibility. I do not dismiss the crossed pipes aspect to all this. It obviously needs to be checked. But is it enough to simply say that he does not think it's the dip tube? What is the harm in showing me that the tube is fine? I don't care how good a plumber he is. A smart businessman providing a service or product should be able to politely explain to a customer why that customer's concern is not valid. This is not too much to ask!

Even granting the crossed pipes problem, there was something the old heater was doing that the new heater is not. One thing I know for sure is that what he told me about the setting of the heater was definitely wrong or a deliberate lie: He said that I had the old heater on a very high setting. This was the first real sign to me that gave me a really uneasy feeling about this plumber.

I don't like to accuse people of lying when I'm not sure but the way this plumber has treated me leaves me no choice. I know for a fact that I never had the heater on high. I'm a very economical guy and I hate wasting anything. But he took the heater so how can I prove this? This point really upsets me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeniorSitizen View Post
How many ways has been suggested you can determine if the dip tube is at fault? How many of those ways have you followed to determine that?

Last edited by stripedbass; 01-23-2019 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:11 PM   #176
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Quote:
Originally Posted by stripedbass View Post
I do not like how I've been treated as a customer. I don't like it that the plumber has given me the round around when it comes to the dip tube.

As unlikely as it may seem, what if the problem is the crossed pipes AND the dip tube? How does the plumber and I cross out the dip tube issue? I feel helpless when it comes to the dip tube.

The plumber supplied and installed a water heater, and you're not getting hot water. The plumber has to be afforded the opportunity to determine what the cause(s) are. Even with crossed pipes, he will be able to determine that hot water is not getting from the heater to your unit.

Quote:
Is my only choice to find the crossed pipes or nothing? If so, why did an older water heater not have this problem? Also, given what I've been through with him, I really do not feel comfortable assigning him to look for the crossed pipes. I feel that he would do it in a way that will completely exonerate him of any responsibility that he may truly have on his end.
If the dip tube is faulty, it won't exonerate him from at least correcting that problem. At that point, even with the crossed pipe, you should at least be back to the situation you had before he did any work - you got hot water with some cold mixed in from the offending crossed pipe.



Quote:
Also, what if we found and fixed the crossed pipes and the water heater still did not work? How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?
Do you seriously think the plumber changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems?
Quote:


I'm considering whether a small claims court can help in my situation in any way. Or is there another way forward?

Having already paid him in good faith, I have no leverage over him. He can simply claim that he's busy or that there's nothing more he can do. Am I at his mercy and have totally no options? This is actually scary from a consumer point of view.
From what I understand, the plumber hasn't been back since the initial install. I'm no lawyer, but you're going to have to at least afford him the opportunity to scope out the problem and take corrective action first.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:55 PM   #177
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Hi LawnGuy,

I have no problem with the plumber trying to determine what the problem is. This is in many ways my major gripe. A big problem with this plumber is that he has not accorded me the basic respect you give to a customer who has paid you the entire bill of $1650.00 upfront without even testing the product. By respect I mean assuring me that he has done everything that he was supposed to do. A good start is to simply show up!

I have never felt that a faulty dip tube will exonerate the plumber from correcting it. Why would I? But even if I got back to where I was before with my old water heater, it would at least be a vast improvement over what I have at the moment.

I would still like to correct the crossed pipes problem. But to me this would be a more transparent or honest position to be in. For instance, I could be able to more confidently approach our condo association and explain to them that I have done everything that I'm responsible for on my end (the plumber has checked everything and so on). And, assuming the crossed pipes, are in a common area, the rest would be up to the condo association.

I am not alleging, as you state (or ask me), that the plumber "changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems." But I mentioned the small claims court because I simply feel that my situation cries out for an independent judge of some kind.

Who is stopping the plumber from determining what the problem is? Not me! First it was his vacation in Maine that was the barrier. Now it's that he's very busy.

What do I do in the meantime? I've actually been quite patient, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky View Post
The plumber supplied and installed a water heater, and you're not getting hot water. The plumber has to be afforded the opportunity to determine what the cause(s) are. Even with crossed pipes, he will be able to determine that hot water is not getting from the heater to your unit.

If the dip tube is faulty, it won't exonerate him from at least correcting that problem. At that point, even with the crossed pipe, you should at least be back to the situation you had before he did any work - you got hot water with some cold mixed in from the offending crossed pipe.

Do you seriously think the plumber changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems?
From what I understand, the plumber hasn't been back since the initial install. I'm no lawyer, but you're going to have to at least afford him the opportunity to scope out the problem and take corrective action first.

Last edited by stripedbass; 01-23-2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:58 PM   #178
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Hi Striped, sorry I said I was out but I guess I am as frustrated as you. i'm back but kind of just following along . You have had many experts and amateurs explain what it could be. The dip tube check has been mentioned many times. Including how do it. It's a simple test that you can do . Just relax , go back, look up the dip tube test from the replies and take your time and just do it. The plumber won't even know you did it. Then when he comes just keep quite and watch him . You will already know the answer to the dip tube question. the most important thing is just chill and do it. Other than that it's a wait and see . I personally don't trust the plumber but you have to give him the opportunity to fix the problem. Just make sure you keep all information and dates just in case. Time is of the essence.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:48 PM   #179
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Quote:
Originally Posted by stripedbass View Post
SeniorSitizen,

If I tamper with the heater I could do something that gives him an excuse to void any warranty I have.

Turning valves, opening the cleanout drain, drawing water from the bottom, are not warranty-voiding procedures. It's ridiculous you would think so. They're your valves, your pipes, your water heater.



Quote:

More than a month after he installed the heater he has not done anything in front of me to rule out the possibility that the dip tube is part of the problem. This works well for his interests because it totally clears him of any responsibility. I do not dismiss the crossed pipes aspect to all this. It obviously needs to be checked. But is it enough to simply say that he does not think it's the dip tube? What is the harm in showing me that the tube is fine? I don't care how good a plumber he is. A smart businessman providing a service or product should be able to politely explain to a customer why that customer's concern is not valid. This is not too much to ask!
He's fixated on the cross-connect problem being the entire cause. Especially because he's been totally aware of it from the beginning. If there were no dip tube problem, and your heater was heating to at least the same temperature as your old heater did, your hot tap should at least provide a 50/50 mix of hot and cold.


A couple weeks ago he was going to come by with an inspector - Apparently it never happened, and you had suspicions he was going to get an approval to absolve himself and leave you holding the bag.


Your paranoia is the reason you've gone over a month with no hot water.





Quote:
Even granting the crossed pipes problem, there was something the old heater was doing that the new heater is not. One thing I know for sure is that what he told me about the setting of the heater was definitely wrong or a deliberate lie: He said that I had the old heater on a very high setting. This was the first real sign to me that gave me a really uneasy feeling about this plumber.

I don't like to accuse people of lying when I'm not sure but the way this plumber has treated me leaves me no choice. I know for a fact that I never had the heater on high. I'm a very economical guy and I hate wasting anything. But he took the heater so how can I prove this? This point really upsets me.
You don't realize the temperature control on your old heater at "medium" is a totally different temperature than on a new heater at "medium." Possession of the old heater wouldn't prove anything. You're fixating on a non-issue that has nothing to do with the problem at hand.



I recommend you make another appointment (preferably not during a below-zero cold snap) to get the issue resolved sans your underlying suspicion that all this plumber wants to do is rip you off.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:14 PM   #180
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Re: New water heater only sending hot water for a short while


Quote:
Originally Posted by stripedbass View Post
Hi LawnGuy,

I have no problem with the plumber trying to determine what the problem is. This is in many ways my major gripe. A big problem with this plumber is that he has not accorded me the basic respect you give to a customer who has paid you the entire bill of $1650.00 upfront without even testing the product. By respect I mean assuring me that he has done everything that he was supposed to do. A good start is to simply show up!

Correct me if I'm wrong, since the installation you've made one appointment with him, for Tuesday, which he didn't show for because of no heat / frozen burst pipe jobs due to the recent cold snap.



Quote:

I have never felt that a faulty dip tube will exonerate the plumber from correcting it. Why would I? But even if I got back to where I was before with my old water heater, it would at least be a vast improvement over what I have at the moment.
I never suggested a faulty dip tube would exonerate him, or that you thought it would.

Quote:
I would still like to correct the crossed pipes problem. But to me this would be a more transparent or honest position to be in. For instance, I could be able to more confidently approach our condo association and explain to them that I have done everything that I'm responsible for on my end (the plumber has checked everything and so on). And, assuming the crossed pipes, are in a common area, the rest would be up to the condo association.

I'm going to hazard a guess that a crossed pipe (your hot into some other cold) is the association's problem no matter where it exists.

Quote:
I am not alleging, as you state (or ask me), that the plumber "changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems."

YES YOU DID!


Quote:
How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?


But I mentioned the small claims court because I simply feel that my situation cries out for an independent judge of some kind.
Court is what you do AFTER exhausting your options.
Quote:


Who is stopping the plumber from determining what the problem is? Not me! First it was his vacation in Maine that was the barrier. Now it's that he's very busy.

What do I do in the meantime? I've actually been quite patient, if you ask me.
When he got back from vacation (unfortunate timing with respect to the issue, but not an unforgivable act on his part.) but before this cold snap set in, jamming his schedule with calls from customers with no heat and frozen and burst pipes (priority) he reached out to you to get in there with an inspector. Whatever came of that?
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