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Old 04-21-2017, 11:07 PM   #1
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Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Hi friends....

I have a couple of old Moen 1225 shower valves (20 year old...not posi-temps) that I have to clean and replace the cartridges.

The valve cartridges are extreemly hard to turn on/off right now... but no leaking. I am awaiting a Moen valve puller from E-bay right now.... the plastic valve "socket" with the new cartridges was useless.

The existing valve has no stops so I want to be prepared when I do pull the old cartridges.

I expect the valve cylinders to be pretty crapped up, as I've had to replace about every angle stop valve in this home and the main shutoff gate just twisted off (replaced with a ball valve). The water is pretty hard around here.

My primary question is how best to clean the old valve cylinder before installing the new cartridge.

I'll spray it with some CLR, and all I can think of is to use a 1/2 pipe brush (for cleaning copper before sweating).... but could that steel brush beat-up the brass cylinder... or is that ok... or any better ideas for cleaning/polishing that cylinder.????

Any advice/ideas are appreciated.

TIA
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:41 AM   #2
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Bump to todays posts.

Any ideas..... Do you figure that stiff copper cleaning brush could scar the valve seal on brass.

Any other ideas how to clean that valve up.
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:19 PM   #3
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Hey Mtn man, as a machinist (many years ago) we would clean small bore holes using a small wooden dowel and a little emery cloth. Use a dowel a little smaller than the hole, make a saw cut longitudinally on one end about 3/4 long. Tear off some emery cloth (maybe 150-220 grit) 3/4 wide by a couple inches long. Insert the center of the cloth into the saw cut, chuck the dowel into a drill. Should clean it up in short order.

I am currently rebuilding an old Delta 3 handle shower valve that will likely need the same treatment.

Good luck

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Old 04-22-2017, 02:36 PM   #4
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Yoda..... Thanks....

Good idea.... I'll try it...

Curiosity....By the way, would you know if a copper fitting/cleaning brush would scar up a brass cartridge socket..... it's a pretty stiff steel brush.

Isn't brass softer than copper....?????

Best
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:09 PM   #5
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No, brass is harder than copper
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:40 PM   #6
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


I found this hardness chart for different mat'l, I was surprised, brass is about the same hardness as low carbon steel.
http://www.drill-hq.com/2011/11/hard...ous-materials/


one of the valve body ports I cleaned this afternoon with the new spring and seat installed
Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????-curtis-valve-3.jpg
Attachment 373650
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:29 AM   #7
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Would I conclude that a stiff metal 1/2" brush (for sweating/cleaning copper) be all right to use on a brass shower cartridge cylinder..... or would I risk scoreing the cylinder relative to the cartridge seal.

Not sure which method to try first.

Any other ideas/advice.....

(I'm still waitig on the cartridge removal tool in the mail)

TIA
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:41 AM   #8
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Bump...
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:29 AM   #9
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


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Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
Would I conclude that a stiff metal 1/2" brush (for sweating/cleaning copper) be all right to use on a brass shower cartridge cylinder..... or would I risk scoreing the cylinder relative to the cartridge seal.

Not sure which method to try first.

Any other ideas/advice.....

(I'm still waitig on the cartridge removal tool in the mail)

TIA


Not sure if your brush would damage the finish or not. If you are starting with a high polish mico finish it might. Although I don't think you will have that kind of finish in a old valve. What concerns me more is using the steel wire. It could leave microscopic size steel deposits in the brass that could start corrosion. Probably over thinking it.

But if you are concerned about heavy scratches, maybe try a hone first.

Something like this. You can get them in every size, grit and mineral imaginable.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002XUL0BS/ref=biss_dp_t_asn
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:54 PM   #10
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Thanks Yoda....

I am probably overthinking it.... and I haven't even pulled the cartridge yet... but with no shower shutoffs, I just want to cover all my options in advance.

I'm sure I've replaced Moens (might have been posi-temps) in the past with absolutely no problems/issues.

But, the hard water around this home (I'm not in Colorado right now) is sorta new to me, and I never had a problem with a cartridge that won't even budge....so I'm concerned with what I might find.

Sorta strange, but I would have thought that this might be a common issue that many of us would have encountered and know the fix...

Guess Eplumber is not around right now or Ghost maybe...

.. the hone is a good idea especially if I could just go down and pick it up and return it if I don't need it....

Thanks again for the ideas ...
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:35 AM   #11
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


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Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
Thanks Yoda....

I am probably overthinking it.... and I haven't even pulled the cartridge yet... but with no shower shutoffs, I just want to cover all my options in advance.

I'm sure I've replaced Moens (might have been posi-temps) in the past with absolutely no problems/issues.

But, the hard water around this home (I'm not in Colorado right now) is sorta new to me, and I never had a problem with a cartridge that won't even budge....so I'm concerned with what I might find.

Sorta strange, but I would have thought that this might be a common issue that many of us would have encountered and know the fix...

Guess Eplumber is not around right now or Ghost maybe...

.. the hone is a good idea especially if I could just go down and pick it up and return it if I don't need it....

Thanks again for the ideas ...

I was referring to myself. I am notorious for complicating simple tasks by thinking to much! Nothing wrong with trying to be prepared though. And yea, I was curious to hear how some of the master plumbers clean them out as well.
Another thought is call Moen tech support. I have always had excellent results with their support team.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:13 PM   #12
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Yoda....

"Great minds" must think alike.....

I called Moen this morning, and just tried them again.... but they have an announcement on, that temporarily their system is down...please try later.

I'll update and let you know...

Best
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:14 PM   #13
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Quote:
I am probably overthinking it....
I agree.

Quote:
The valve cartridges are extreemly hard to turn on/off right now... but no leaking.
I don't think that is an indicator of mineral deposit build up inside the valve.
To me it indicates a build up of mineral deposits inside the cartridge. The cartridge itself does not move inside the valve. The stem inside the cartridge is what moves and turns.
The difficulty in removing the cartridge is caused by swollen seals (outside the cartridge) between the cartridge and the valve.
I wouldn't be trying to sand inside the valve. At least insert the new cartridge and see if you have a problem before trying to sand or resurface the inside of the valve..
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Old 04-24-2017, 06:36 PM   #14
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


The outer cartridge on Moen does not move. All they have is O ring seals. And some times depending on how one installs control over hot and cold being on left or right.

The movement is usually the internal little cartridge. It moves from right to left cold to warmer and controls amount of water flow and temp.

Do not damage the outer cartridge brass. I would not use a wire brush because of rust.

Make sure you use plumbers grease when you put the new thing back in. DO NOT Damage in any way the Brass of the valve. If you do you get to buy a new one.

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Old 04-24-2017, 08:06 PM   #15
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Re: Moen Shower valve repair advice...?????


Quote:
Originally Posted by hkstroud View Post
I agree.


I don't think that is an indicator of mineral deposit build up inside the valve.
To me it indicates a build up of mineral deposits inside the cartridge. The cartridge itself does not move inside the valve. The stem inside the cartridge is what moves and turns.
The difficulty in removing the cartridge is caused by swollen seals (outside the cartridge) between the cartridge and the valve.
I wouldn't be trying to sand inside the valve. At least insert the new cartridge and see if you have a problem before trying to sand or resurface the inside of the valve..
Harold.... Thanks... and I agree.

This is the old 1225 (not posi).... and my exact concern is to NOT damage the valve cylinder.

Clearly th`e stem in the cartridge is F'd up. Takes two hands and a male to pull it out to turn on the water... actually it rotates fine for hot/cold.

Maybe the cylinder is not crapped up, but when I try to rotate the cartridge to remove it... it doesn't budge.

Hopefully that is swollen "O" rings... but I've never run into any that bad.... so I thought that I likely had CLR build up somewhere.

Soon as I get the metal puller (verse the plastic "socket" that comes with the cartridge) and get the cartridge out .... mayble the valve cylyinder is fine.

With no stops, I just need to be prepared.

It must be a common issue in hard water country.... both my downstairs baths are similar. (I'm just new to hard water country).

Thanks again for the advice....

Best

Peter
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