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Old 05-10-2018, 09:16 AM   #16
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Re: flush completely every time


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Originally Posted by chandler48 View Post
Not long ago I installed a Niagara toilet. Uses .8 gallons per flush and flushes completely every time. Being on a well, I appreciate the reduction in water usage.

I am still at a loss how the fill valve has anything to do with flushing. My understanding once the toilet is flushed, the fill valve fills the tank to ready it for the next flush. What am I missing?
My curiosity also CHANDLER.

Maybe if the new fill valve fills faster, then it adds a little water to the flush before the flap closes....???????

But I don't get it either.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:19 AM   #17
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Re: flush completely every time


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My curiosity also CHANDLER.

Maybe if the new fill valve fills faster, then it adds a little water to the flush before the flap closes....???????

But I don't get it either.
I don't design 'em & I don't make 'em but when it gets down to brass tacks, every bit more of water you can push through a water saving bowl during a flush helps improve that flush & conversely, every bit of water you remove during a flushing cycle can/will negatively affect the flush; especially if the cycle starts with the incorrect water level in the bowl, requiring the bowl to properly fill before it can flush.

The performax fill valve claims a higher flow/fill rate which means it can allow more water to enter in the flushing equation than a standard fill valve.

speaking of American Standard, remember the ole tilt flush disc/flapper that showed up in 60s when they went to 3.5 GPF technology?
https://www.amazon.com/American-Stan.../dp/B0026T2P24

ever wonder why that design was needed & better yet why if a standardized universal flapper that installed by sliding down unto the overflow tube did not work well at all?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IKU3LAS...=6842756210101

that tilt flush had a water tube on top that forced the disc to stay up & open for a longer period, even when all the water had exited the tank... to allow the extra flow from the fill valve to enter into the flushing cycle & thereby guarantee that bowl flushed/rinsed well. without the tilt flush assembly installed, most of those bowls would not even hardly siphon...

so the homeowner would eventually cull/replace a perfectly good flushing toilet due to an incorrect part installed. go figure

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Old 05-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #18
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Re: flush completely every time


So, holding the lever down for a few extra seconds until after the flapper would normally have closed would have the same effect as the specialty long-lasting flapper. Right?

I'm still lost as to how the fill rate could impact the flush. Seems like they're two separate functions. Unless you flush before the tank has filled, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

I'm curious because we have a toilet which doesn't fully clean the bowl on the first flush, and I'm pretty sure there's no blockage. I always just assumed a poor design.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #19
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Re: flush completely every time


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So, holding the lever down for a few extra seconds until after the flapper would normally have closed would have the same effect as the specialty long-lasting flapper. Right?

I'm still lost as to how the fill rate could impact the flush. Seems like they're two separate functions. Unless you flush before the tank has filled, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

I'm curious because we have a toilet which doesn't fully clean the bowl on the first flush, and I'm pretty sure there's no blockage. I always just assumed a poor design.
Yea... Like Chandler and CapTom.... I sure understand how the flapper is extreemly important to flush effectiveness.....

just not quite so much how the fill rate (fill valve/mechanism) has any affect.... except if it is dumping water into the flush..... in which case we are just saying it is not a Xgal flush toilet...... not much different than if we cheat it and put a nipple on the overflow pipe extending it.?

Maybe Performax is just clever marketing... capturing a "new improved" (non-existant) technology for everyone that is having a poor flush with the new low volume toilets.
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:32 PM   #20
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Re: flush completely every time


I realize I didn't finish this thought; multitasking evidently is not my best default setting - duh

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Originally Posted by DR P View Post
...especially if the cycle starts with the incorrect water level in the bowl, requiring the bowl to properly fill before it can flush.

The performax fill valve claims a higher flow/fill rate which means it can allow more water to enter in the flushing equation than a standard fill valve...
the fill cycle is so short that the higher flow rate also enters into overflow tube (when adjusted properly) & helps ensure the bowl level is full to flood rim for next flush cycle, which is very critical for consistent flushing efficiency in low flush toilets.

in the old 1.6 GPF toilet, holding handle could help the flush performance but now the piston or flapper seat is significantly raised up off the bottom of tank floor in the 1.28 & 1.0 GPF newest government mandated toilets & of course the overflow tubes are also lower on purpose too... ty big brother.

next time in big box store, take survey of how many 1.6 GPF toilets there are actually available for purchase... 1 maybe 2 out of entire lot to choose from & usually it is a house brand & or entry level grade toilet at best...

if a HO has old metal pipes or a bastard vent configuration such as a horizontal dry vent, the 1.28 & lower flush toilet is not their friend...

as for OP toilet, they did let new flush valve ride a year before asking for help here, so is there a build up in bowl/line, is bowl level low, did they change TP?
go figure

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Last edited by DR P; 05-10-2018 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #21
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Re: flush completely every time


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as for OP toilet, they did let new flush valve ride a year before asking for help here, so is there a build up in bowl/line, is bowl level low, did they change TP?
go figure

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Old 05-10-2018, 04:12 PM   #22
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Re: flush completely every time


Well, the Niagara blows that theory out of the water. The fill valve fills a separate chamber and has nothing to do with the initial flush. It uses a water plug ahead of the flush to cause a vortex when the flush happens (please don't ask me how that happens, I am a naildriver, not a plumber). The water in the tank comes directly from the front of the unit into the "down" hole. I don't understand the technology, but sure like the way it flushes.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:13 AM   #23
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Re: flush completely every time


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Take a bucket. Put 1.28 gallons (4.8 liters) in it. Dump it in the bowl quickly. The toilet should flush or evacuate the bowl. (It won't have the normal wash down or bowl rinse, but the water should leave the bowl quickly)

If it doesn't, your problem has nothing to do with the tank/fill valve. You have a blockage/obstruction in the trap, in the sewer pipe, or possibly the vent pipe.
thanks, ok: 1. put 1.28gallons in bowl to flush following bm and it did not flush contents
2. 1. put 1.28gallons in bowl to flush urine and it DID flush contents

what does that tell me & how to fix this?
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:03 PM   #24
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Re: flush completely every time


1. You have an occlusion in the drain pipe
2. You have an occlusion in the vent pipe.

It will be a toss up.
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Old 05-12-2018, 01:08 AM   #25
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Re: flush completely every time


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And I can't wait a year for answers to testing questions and I even try to avoid buying green bananas. ...

then I will recommend this book for you - https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Buy-Any-.../dp/B000AY8AQC probably could find it cheap in used paperback or at a library? its literally got your name written all over it...

The author was a North Carolina Baptist preacher, turned head basketball coach @ Wake Forest, turned writer, turned newspaper columnist, turned humorist. This is a collection of his funniest newspaper columns with a focus on Senior Citizens.

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:34 AM   #26
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Re: flush completely every time


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Originally Posted by chandler48 View Post
Well, the Niagara blows that theory out of the water. The fill valve fills a separate chamber and has nothing to do with the initial flush. It uses a water plug ahead of the flush to cause a vortex when the flush happens (please don't ask me how that happens, I am a naildriver, not a plumber). The water in the tank comes directly from the front of the unit into the "down" hole. I don't understand the technology, but sure like the way it flushes.
https://content.interlinebrands.com/...4_Brochure.pdf
an improved version of the vacuum assisted, double trapped bowl, invented by Fluidmaster https://patents.google.com/patent/US7207073B1/en & came out under several brand names...probably name most well known was the briggs vacuity 1.6 GPF (I know crane had a version too)... was pricey but a very decent flushing toilet (especially when it arrived in early '90s compared to most young 1.6 versions) especially in new construction; but it is impossible to find the inner replacement plastic vacuum liner & top assembly nowadays... liners were bad to crack from tank bolts; was a PITA to rod out with 2nd trap & without a drop head closet auger though.

I'd imagine the Niagara is no different in that respect; evidently they have improved & (better sealed?)/patented the vacuum chamber/tube assembly that allows for 3 liter flushes... gets some good reviews considering it is an ultra low flush toilet: https://homeworthylist.com/best-low-...oilet-reviews/ although evidently reviews admit some folks are too full of crap to be able to own this type throne? obviously not you chandler since you enjoy yours & it serves you well.

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Last edited by DR P; 05-12-2018 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:47 PM   #27
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Re: flush completely every time


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Originally Posted by chandler48 View Post
1. You have an occlusion in the drain pipe
2. You have an occlusion in the vent pipe.
It will be a toss up.
1.used snake aka auger thru toilet to clear/unclog any debris. Had about 4' of coil in the toilet drain pipe. I felt resistance but not sure whether that was due to a clog or the auger hitting a kink/curve in the drain. i retracted 6" then went forward again. the water in the bowl did turn a rust color but i did not see anything at the end of the augur. flushed and it flushes just as poorly
2. ran end of pvc chimney sweep thru vent pipe in the attic to loosen any debris. didnt feel any resistance. flushed and it flushes just as poorly

what is causing this problem?
how to fix this problem? thanks
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:02 PM   #28
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Re: flush completely every time


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1.used snake aka auger thru toilet to clear/unclog any debris. Had about 4' of coil in the toilet drain pipe. I felt resistance but not sure whether that was due to a clog or the auger hitting a kink/curve in the drain. i retracted 6" then went forward again. the water in the bowl did turn a rust color but i did not see anything at the end of the augur. flushed and it flushes just as poorly
2. ran end of pvc chimney sweep thru vent pipe in the attic to loosen any debris. didnt feel any resistance. flushed and it flushes just as poorly

what is causing this problem?
how to fix this problem? thanks
Try pulling the toilet and back clear the toilet itself. If no better, clogg is further down the line. just a suggestion.

I once had a comb stuck sideways in the toilet trap itself giving me an awful time with flushing.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:08 PM   #29
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Re: flush completely every time


In another century I did maintenance on Section 8 housing (total fun time). I found combs, personal items and even Mighty Morphin Rangers that partially opened up while going down, so that is a real possibility. For the vent, you will probably be better off using a garden hose to chug it first, then have someone turn on the water after you chug. If the water doesn't back up on you, you don't have an occlusion.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:09 PM   #30
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Re: flush completely every time


I agree with post 24. Still partial blockage somewhere further down the line or out towards main. Just my opinion.

Municipal sewer or septic system?
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