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Old 07-04-2015, 04:33 PM   #16
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I have a better idea. Keep the laundry tray. Direct washer to drain into laundry tray. Install bucket sump on laundry tray drain. Run sump discharge to 4 inch stack or clean out.
http://www.amazon.com/Zoeller-105-00.../dp/B0009TCDZ2

Then make sure you permanently cap any of the old drain openings.
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Old 07-04-2015, 06:28 PM   #17
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I have a better idea. Keep the laundry tray. Direct washer to drain into laundry tray. Install bucket sump on laundry tray drain. Run sump discharge to 4 inch stack or clean out.
http://www.amazon.com/Zoeller-105-00.../dp/B0009TCDZ2

Then make sure you permanently cap any of the old drain openings.
That was actually one of my "crazy" ideas. Cap off the line going under the floor, and use the sump pump from the tub. But what to do with the kitchen sink discharge.

I asked the plumber who was here the other day about running a pipe from the kitchen down along the walls to the cleanout in the bath. He told me that it could be done - that we would probably have enough drop in the line - told me that the washing machine could pump up to 10ft vertically, so the hose could be attached - through a check valve to the line from the kitchen near the ceiling. Eliminate the washtub completely.
Run the new PVC line along the walls and attach to the cleanout in the bath. Would need a Y fitting to allow cleanout and connection.

Problem is, I looked at the plumbing code today, and it doesn't look like that configuration meets code. First, the washer needs to be dumped into a standpipe, and air needs to be let in.
If the washer were connected way up near the ceiling (at about 6ft high) through a check-valve, then once the washer pump shuts off, there would be no air coming in to relieve the pressure. The washer's pump would not work if there is backpressure in the hose. It would probably damage the pump.

The code also indicates that connecting a line to the cleanout is not permitted. I don't see why not; maybe I read it incorrectly. I was looking at the PHCC National Standard Plumbing Code.

FW

Edit: I suppose the washer side of the check valve would need to be vented. That would eliminate the problem with backpressure.

Or, as you said, drain the washer into the tub - that's how it works now - but with the underground pipe carrying the water away from the tub.
Without the line under the floor, the sump could drain the tub into the sewer at some distance.
The line from the kitchen sink could come along the walls of the basement, gradually descending towards the cleanout in the bath.
Then, somewhere along that line, install a Y, a p-trap, and create a standpipe to dump the sump outflow into. I don't think there would be any need for an additional vent along that line. There is one in the laundry, which can be connected to the new pipe from the kitchen.

Or, move the washer to the other side of the basement where the new line from the kitchen would pass, and eliminate the tub in the laundry. No need for the sump in that case.
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Old 07-06-2015, 03:42 PM   #18
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Well the main problem with draining into a cleanout is... you still need a cleanout to meet code. I suppose you could add another cleanout to your new pipe close to where it joins the old cleanout.

The second problem with using a cleanout is the angle or sweep. Wye or combination drain fittings are used to direct the water flow. But a cleanout is very often a straight, 90 perpendicular tee, which will not direct water flow correctly. You'd need to check and verify an appropriate fitting was used beneath for the cleanout before considering this an option.

The final problem with draining into a cleanout is threaded connections are, as a general rule, prohibited for PVC/ABS drain fittings, which must be glued. You would need to jackhammer out concrete as necessary to cut out the threaded cleanout adapter fitting and glue in a coupler.

It's do-able if done right, but it's easy to mess this up.
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Old 07-06-2015, 04:37 PM   #19
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Well the main problem with draining into a cleanout is... you still need a cleanout to meet code. I suppose you could add another cleanout to your new pipe close to where it joins the old cleanout.

The second problem with using a cleanout is the angle or sweep. Wye or combination drain fittings are used to direct the water flow. But a cleanout is very often a straight, 90 perpendicular tee, which will not direct water flow correctly. You'd need to check and verify an appropriate fitting was used beneath for the cleanout before considering this an option.

The final problem with draining into a cleanout is threaded connections are, as a general rule, prohibited for PVC/ABS drain fittings, which must be glued. You would need to jackhammer out concrete as necessary to cut out the threaded cleanout adapter fitting and glue in a coupler.

It's do-able if done right, but it's easy to mess this up.
Thanks for the heads-up. I was afraid it wouldn't meet code, but wasn't sure why. I think you have explained it very well here.
So I'll just go the normal route, and have the plumber dig up the floor, and follow the pipe to find the break/clog and hopefully be able to patch into the old pipe after a few feet or so. Otherwise, we're looking at replacing the whole pipe.

FW
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:21 PM   #20
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I got a ranch house built in about 1960 and the main stack and upstairs and basement 1/2 bath are in the front of the house.

In the rear corner of the house is the kitchen, and below the kitchen is a shower in the basement, which drops into a floor drain. The laundry is up front next to the 1/2 bath in the basement.

The floor drain was slow, then got slower. I cut the concrete heading directly towards the main stack from the floor drain about 12' and started looking for the pipe and it wasn't there. Instead of heading directly towards the main stack, they ran parallel to the front wall all the way across the house, past the area where they would have to 90 to the main stack. A bit after the area where a 90 would be installed, they made a bit sharper turn than a 90 and headed towards the main stack.

The cast iron was blown out near the floor drain, where the floor drain wye'd into the line coming from the kitchen. These were cast iron lines, about 2" in the beginning and they were blocked down to about 3/4". The sections of pipe would fall apart in your hand, and this house was built around 1960. I kept going and going, looking for a nice piece of pipe to tie into, and I was hoping after they made the 90, that it might turn into 3" pipe. It didn't. I tied on after the 90 with a long sweep tee and I went back off the tee to the hvac, where I stubbed up for a drain which can also be used as a clean out. I also put in a new floor drain with a clean out near it. I figure the kitchen from upstairs could be re-routed into the clean-out near the floor drain if that piece under the slab stops working.

Then I moved on to the next home, just a block down the street. Same set up-kitchen in back corner, bath up front. In basement the laundry was under the kitchen and the washing machine dumps into a basin which in turn dumps into the floor drain. There is no bathroom in the basement, so I planned a bathroom adjacent to the main stack, and I would like to move the laundry to that area and run the kitchen drain overhead, thus eliminating all the cast iron under the concrete.
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Old 07-08-2015, 01:32 PM   #21
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I'm afraid that my situation will be worse than I am hoping for, being that this house is 90 years old. I guess I need to be prepared for the entire pipe to be replaced. At least after that, we won't have the problems anymore.
This is definitely something I will not attempt on my own. I have two estimates for the work so far, a third is due by in a few hours. These estimates are of course going to be the lowest possible, as we are "assuming" 10ft of pipe needs to be replaced. That, as I have said before, might be a pipe dream!
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Old 07-08-2015, 01:41 PM   #22
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Just a quick question: Does a job like this always require a permit and inspection?
I plan to leave that up to the plumber who does the work, but I am curious.
If an inspection is required, there will be a wait between the time he finished the plumbing to when the pipe can be back-filled and patched with concrete.
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Old 07-08-2015, 01:47 PM   #23
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Depends on your jurisdiction. In general, larger cities almost always require permits and inspections, smaller towns less so, and counties tend to be even more relaxed (but not all!). Extremely rural areas may not care at all what you do.
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
Just a quick question: Does a job like this always require a permit and inspection?
I plan to leave that up to the plumber who does the work, but I am curious.
If an inspection is required, there will be a wait between the time he finished the plumbing to when the pipe can be back-filled and patched with concrete.
I would expect in NJ, permits and inspections would need to be done. It's easily checked with the local building dept.
If you find out permits and inspections are required, I would stay clear of any plumber who says you don't need them.
Big red flag.
In NYC plumbers are allowed to self inspect. They set up an inspection appointment and if no one shows up, they can self inspect. If an inspector shows up after the plumber, "passes" the work and finds out there are violations, the plumber loses the privilege of the self inspection.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:18 PM   #25
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Usually the home owner is the one responsible to make sure all permits are pulled by the trades and all test are performed. Do not hire a fly by night plumber who does not pull permits and have inspections.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:25 PM   #26
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Usually the home owner is the one responsible to make sure all permits are pulled by the trades and all test are performed. Do not hire a fly by night plumber who does not pull permits and have inspections.
Who does what, when differs by locale. The homeowner around here(Nassau, Suffolk, NYC) can tell the plumber or electrician or contractor to pull the permits, but each trade must go down there and pull their own permits. The building department will want to see their license, disability, liability and workman's comp insurance certificates.
The contractors schedule the inspections, not the homeowner.
As we know, other places are more casual about this procedure. But in any case you want to see his insurance certificates and get copies. You also want to verify that the insurance is still in force when he's working on your house.
The better the prep work, the fewer the surprises when(if) things go South.
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Last edited by Ron6519; 07-08-2015 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:23 PM   #27
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The insurance requirement of a licensed contractor are very important. If the are not licensed they may not have workers comp insurance. This leaves you Mr. Homeowner legally responsible for injuries on the job.
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:28 PM   #28
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Thanks for all of your advice. I will check all of that before we hire anyone. That is one reason we need a few days before we even make a decision on who we hire - from the three estimates.
All of these plumbers were recommended by the guy who cleans our drains (when I can't handle the job )
I suppose I can get some info online, but I will probably need to visit the municipal building as well.

FW
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Old 07-11-2015, 09:46 AM   #29
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Talk about red flags. I've been trying to get an estimate from a 3rd plumber. He keeps calling me to tell me why he can't make it at the specified time. This morning he gave me the lame excuse "my truck won't start - have to wait for a tow". Right. He's a plumber, it's his living - but he doesn't take care of his vehicle?
And if this is just for an estimate, he could easily take his car, or his wife's car, or even ask me to come pick him up. He's not far away.
This tells me one thing. He really doesn't want the job, but maybe can't make up his mind, or is just one of those guys who has trouble meeting schedules.
Not a good sign, is it.

I will either try to find another plumber for the 3rd estimate, or choose one of the two who already gave me their estimates.

FW
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Old 07-11-2015, 10:19 AM   #30
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The insurance requirement of a licensed contractor are very important. If the are not licensed they may not have workers comp insurance. This leaves you Mr. Homeowner legally responsible for injuries on the job.
Workman's Comp regulations differ from state to state. A small one person shop might not be required to carry this insurance.
In NY if the company has no employees and the Corporation only has one officer, no Workman's Comp is required.
That company will be given a waiver to show you if they qualify.
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