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Old 04-22-2016, 09:31 PM   #1
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American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


We have one of these American Standard Large Flapper that has a guide down inside the Douglas Valve to center it over the opening and it has a short old style stopper chain that connects it to the handle with a small pin and a clip. This flapper seems heavy to me but when you flush the toilet, you have to hold down the handle for a couple of seconds or it only drops about a quart of water. How can you make this large 4" flapper stay up longer so you can just push quickly on the handle and get a full flush. Any ideas? I am stumped.
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:05 PM   #2
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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We have one of these American Standard Large Flapper that has a guide down inside the Douglas Valve to center it over the opening and it has a short old style stopper chain that connects it to the handle with a small pin and a clip. The Tank Bolts are Stainless.



This flapper seems heavy to me but when you flush the toilet, you have to hold down the handle for a couple of seconds or it only drops about a quart of water. How can you make this large 4" flapper stay up longer so you can just push quickly on the handle and get a full flush. Any ideas? I am stumped.
In trying to edit this post, it somehow got screwed up and posted again when I added the photo.

Last edited by srloren; 04-22-2016 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Double post not intended
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Old 04-23-2016, 06:44 AM   #3
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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Originally Posted by srloren View Post
In trying to edit this post, it somehow got screwed up and posted again when I added the photo.
the flapper may have to be pulled higher to get it out of the water flow down the hole ? shorten the chain ?
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Old 04-23-2016, 11:02 AM   #4
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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the flapper may have to be pulled higher to get it out of the water flow down the hole ? shorten the chain ?
If I shorten the chain any more, the handle will not allow it to seat and water will never fill the tank. But thanks for the thought.
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:11 PM   #5
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


Looks like one of those water saver type flush valves. Good luck trying to adjust it. You could try adding a float to the chain to help the flapper stay up. Don't know if it would help or not.

Some of the new kohlers are like that; You flush once for number 1, and hold down the handle for two seconds for a full flush. Just the way the manufacture designed it. I agree, kind of a pita.

Replace it with a regular flush valve type with the ears on the bottom. Just a suggestion.

Last edited by jmon; 04-23-2016 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 04-23-2016, 01:57 PM   #6
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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Looks like one of those water saver type flush valves. Good luck trying to adjust it. You could try adding a float to the chain to help the flapper stay up. Don't know if it would help or not.

Some of the new kohlers are like that; You flush once for number 1, and hold down the handle for two seconds for a full flush. Just the way the manufacture designed it. I agree, kind of a pita.

Replace it with a regular flush valve type with the ears on the bottom. Just a suggestion.
Went back to verify water was as high as possible and could tighten up chain one more link but still have to hold down the handle for a good second in order to flush #2. You get water savings with this toilet but have to contend with the handle for a second... I guess it is a reasonable trade off...
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Old 04-23-2016, 02:03 PM   #7
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


Not all those toilets are like that. Some flush fine others of the same model you have to hold down the handle. They either work or they do not work. Not amount of adjustment works.
I will not buy a toilet with those flush towers. They are nothing but trouble from what I experienced
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:52 PM   #8
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


I have a Champion 4 with the same design. I just hold the handle as long as I want water to come out. My toilet can flush a dozen golf balls with one flush in 5 seconds, but yes, I have to hold it down.
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Old 04-24-2016, 12:56 PM   #9
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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I have a Champion 4 with the same design. I just hold the handle as long as I want water to come out. My toilet can flush a dozen golf balls with one flush in 5 seconds, but yes, I have to hold it down.
I called American Standard and the tech support told me to be sure that the water level is within 1/4" of the top of the overflow tube. Also that the chain must have very little slack so I adjusted the chain to tighten it up to lift the flapper a little higher. Still I must hold the handle down. It seems that it was designed this way so you could hold it down longer for #2. I wonder why the overflow tube is so low, I am thinking about gluing a 1" PVC Coupling to extend it up an inch higher. If I can adjust the Ball Cock (Fluidmaster) to allow the water level to rise higher, I don't know if that will make the flapper stay afloat longer. Am. Stand. Tech Support is closed today, I will call them tomorrow. I doubt that it will as the Flapper is quite heavy and seems like it is designed to fall quickly...guess that is how they are only getting 1.2 Gal per flush. Any ideas guys?
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Old 04-24-2016, 01:43 PM   #10
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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I called American Standard and the tech support told me to be sure that the water level is within 1/4" of the top of the overflow tube. Also that the chain must have very little slack so I adjusted the chain to tighten it up to lift the flapper a little higher. Still I must hold the handle down. It seems that it was designed this way so you could hold it down longer for #2. I wonder why the overflow tube is so low, I am thinking about gluing a 1" PVC Coupling to extend it up an inch higher. If I can adjust the Ball Cock (Fluidmaster) to allow the water level to rise higher, I don't know if that will make the flapper stay afloat longer. Am. Stand. Tech Support is closed today, I will call them tomorrow. I doubt that it will as the Flapper is quite heavy and seems like it is designed to fall quickly...guess that is how they are only getting 1.2 Gal per flush. Any ideas guys?
here is what i would do , if the flapper is real thick, i would take it out and cut some of the rubber of the top and make it lighter, nothing to loose , just a thought
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:51 PM   #11
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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here is what i would do , if the flapper is real thick, i would take it out and cut some of the rubber of the top and make it lighter, nothing to loose , just a thought
Good idea. American Standard is sending me a new flapper, I may trim that one and install it. I am still gathering information. I know that when I was talking to the Tech at Am Std she told me that they could not recommend modifications because it could affect the water usage.Another question I have is will I have to install a new foam gasket between the tank and the bowl or can you re-use the existing ones?
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Old 04-24-2016, 04:25 PM   #12
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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Another question I have is will I have to install a new foam gasket between the tank and the bowl or can you re-use the existing ones?
Some people do reuse them if they haven't been leaking and are in good shape. I would not, they are not that expensive at any big box store. It will probably come with a new one when they send the flapper anyway.
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Old 04-25-2016, 05:24 AM   #13
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


Have several of the champions and have not noticed this problem. Is yours 1.6 or 1.28 gallon per flush? I believe they modified the 1.6 to meet the 1.28 standard by simply trimming off the overflow to allow less water in the tank. It meets the newer standard but also seems to generate a lot of complaints that it does not flush right. If it's 1.28 you can try to extend the overflow back up and get some more water in the tank.

Looks like your flapper chain is connected close to the end of the flush arm. Moving the chain to a hole closer to the pivot point of the arm may slightly change the leverage. If the arm has been changed it may have a shorter handle on the outside which will also change the leverage and make the float feel heavier to lift.

Carving on the flapper will not solve anything. The majority of the weight you feel is due to the water holding it shut, not the actual weight of the flapper.
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:41 AM   #14
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Re: American Standard Large Flapper a PITA


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Have several of the champions and have not noticed this problem. Is yours 1.6 or 1.28 gallon per flush? I believe they modified the 1.6 to meet the 1.28 standard by simply trimming off the overflow to allow less water in the tank. It meets the newer standard but also seems to generate a lot of complaints that it does not flush right. If it's 1.28 you can try to extend the overflow back up and get some more water in the tank.

Looks like your flapper chain is connected close to the end of the flush arm. Moving the chain to a hole closer to the pivot point of the arm may slightly change the leverage. If the arm has been changed it may have a shorter handle on the outside which will also change the leverage and make the float feel heavier to lift.

Carving on the flapper will not solve anything. The majority of the weight you feel is due to the water holding it shut, not the actual weight of the flapper.
I believe it to be a 1.6, I can't verify it now but what you say about Am Stand shortening the overflow makes sense. If I can extend the overflow with a 1" coupling, I will try that. Also the Fluid Master needs to be adjusted to a higher level. I can do this and raise the water level and still be below the opening for the handle. Hopefully it will help fix the problem. Thanks for your ideas.
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