Kitchen Subfloor Renew - Flooring - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Flooring

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Old 05-10-2015, 08:22 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default

Kitchen Subfloor renew


Hello Folks,


Not a long time ago I posted herein about a distressed house that I bought some time ago whose kitchen had a persistent water leak going on for a long time and thus had a subfloor in bad shape, and I believe that some hidden areas of the subfloor were in really nasty and bad shape long before the visually noticeable water leak (previous unseen and unforeseen leaks over the years, etc). In order to to a proper job I would have to remove all the kitchen cabinets (custom made cabinets, not a run of the mill particle board ones; so I will try to repair and refinish them). Low and behold, I removed some of the cabinets and some of pics below show the state of affairs below the cabinets and beyond:









After having cut and removed most of the subfloor in this corner and side with my circular saw and new amazing variable speed oscillating tool (edges whereon the circular saw would not fit) I was able to remove the rest of subfloor under the sole plate of the partition door and slide the new 3/4 plywood subfloor under the sole plate of the partition wall, as shown below:





As can seen from the pic above the right edge of the opening does not coincide with a joist, so in order to give new the subfloor some support at the edge I am using 2x4s: one box, and two pieces. Shown below:





(using 3/8 gap between subfloor boards)

So far, I have not removed the rest of the kitchen cabinetry due to still be using it and mainly due to the fact the main water line to the house and main water valve is under the kitchen sink.

Since it is the kitchen where large appliance are situated I am also considering reinforcing the subfloor with 3/4 or 1/2 board. Eventually everything will be covered with hardie backerboard and subsequently it will have ceramic throughout.

Any comments and insights would be welcome.
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-10-2015, 09:37 PM   #2
JUSTA MEMBER
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Central Wyoming
Posts: 12,144
Rewards Points: 4,058
Default


Did you try to clean those black marks from the joists.

A cleaner like Tri Sodium Phosphate (TSP), comes to mind.

If it is a mold it might grow and ruin your work.

Why such a large gap (3/8 inch) in the flooring?

A 3/4 inch ply floor should be strong enough to support the appliances and tile without needing extra reinforcement.

ED
de-nagorg is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to de-nagorg For This Useful Post:
tk3000 (05-12-2015)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-11-2015, 08:09 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 36,386
Rewards Points: 17,912
Default


I'd be using 3/4 T X G Advantec, not plywood.
Those seams never should have been offset like that.
The subfloor needs constrution adhesive on top of the joist. Makes the floor less likly to sqeek and about 25% stronger.
If you do not use T X G the floor will flex between the joist.
__________________
When posting in forums, letting us know your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions
joecaption is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joecaption For This Useful Post:
tk3000 (05-12-2015)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-12-2015, 02:41 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default


de-nagorg: yep, I tried to clean them with bleach, but the black spots do not come off easily; other than that the joist are in good shape and solid. Since you comment I tried to clean them again with concentrated clorox bleach. Haven't tried Tri Sodioum Phosphate though, is it more effective than bleach? My bad, I meant 1/8 gap rather than 3/8: actually I am using nails which have about 1/8 inch as spacers.


Joecaption: I will try T X G Advanced the next time (next project). Yep, if by seams you mean the gap: it is actually 1/8 gap and not 3/8 (was a typo). Given that I am using 3 screws instead of nails; wouldn't the subfloor be less likely to squeak? The joists are about 16" off center and I am also using block in a small edge. Why is it so likely to flex between the joists?

Thanks!
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 08:43 AM   #5
JUSTA MEMBER
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Central Wyoming
Posts: 12,144
Rewards Points: 4,058
Default


Bleach on those stains would have killed any mold, so they must be staining and not mold, so that is taken care of.

# inch screws will hold the floor solid and not squeak, and the extra blocking is good too.

I was concerned about the 3/8 gap letting things pass through the floor both ways, but the 1/8 inch is better.

ED
de-nagorg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 10:15 AM   #6
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 6,024
Rewards Points: 750
Default


Bleach does not work well on porous surfaces. Use Concrobium instead. www.concrobium.com

The subfloor has to be t&g if you're using just one layer. Otherwise the second layer will take take of the flexing in the first layer due to no t&g. The second layer,(the underlayment) has to be structural though, " or thicker.

Can you describe what your subfloor/underlayment consists of.

Jaz
__________________
TILE GUY - retired- TROY, MI - Method & Product suitability consulting.

MARBLE from ITALY & GREECE -PERLATO-PERLATINO-BOTTICINO-THASSOS-SIVEC-VOLAKAS-CALACATTA- NAXOS-Slabs-Tiles-Custom containers shipped to you - [email protected]
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JazMan For This Useful Post:
tk3000 (05-14-2015)
Old 05-14-2015, 04:45 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
Bleach does not work well on porous surfaces. Use Concrobium instead. www.concrobium.com

The subfloor has to be t&g if you're using just one layer. Otherwise the second layer will take take of the flexing in the first layer due to no t&g. The second layer,(the underlayment) has to be structural though, " or thicker.

Can you describe what your subfloor/underlayment consists of.

Jaz
I will look into this concrobium product.

I was consider using another layer of plywood to give extra strength but something like 1/4 (not 1/2). Besides using 1/2 would increase the thickness of the floor with relation to its surroundings thus something else to tackle.

As far as underlayment goes, the idea is to use hardie backerboard or maybe durock board with thinset mortar, then more thinset mortar and ultimately lay down the ceramic tiles. So another 1/2 board would make for a pretty high floor.


Thanks for the input!
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2015, 06:00 PM   #8
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 6,024
Rewards Points: 750
Default


" ply is never to be used in a tile installation sandwich, especially the top layer. ⅜" is the minimum, but only if you have subfloor grade ply or OSB (t&g) and all are large pieces where none are smaller than what will be supported by min. 3 joists, or 32". So " is the minimum for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk3000
Besides using 1/2 would increase the thickness of the floor with relation to its surroundings thus something else to tackle.
So? You want different type of flooring, expect different heights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk3000
As far as underlayment goes, the idea is to use hardie backerboard or maybe durock board with thinset mortar, then more thinset mortar and ultimately lay down the ceramic tiles. So another 1/2 board would make for a pretty high floor.
Let me double check to make sure I'm not missing something. I thought some or all of your " ply is not t&g and you might be installing some small pieces. I also recall you saying this.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk3000
Since it is the kitchen where large appliance are situated I am also considering reinforcing the subfloor with 3/4 or 1/2 board.
I'm not sure what that means.

While we're at it did we ever talk about the framing to make sure they're stiff enough for tiles? Size of joists, spacing and unsupported span? Species and grade would be helpful too. How old is the house? Is that a basement or crawl space?

Jaz
__________________
TILE GUY - retired- TROY, MI - Method & Product suitability consulting.

MARBLE from ITALY & GREECE -PERLATO-PERLATINO-BOTTICINO-THASSOS-SIVEC-VOLAKAS-CALACATTA- NAXOS-Slabs-Tiles-Custom containers shipped to you - [email protected]
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 05:28 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
" ply is never to be used in a tile installation sandwich, especially the top layer. ⅜" is the minimum, but only if you have subfloor grade ply or OSB (t&g) and all are large pieces where none are smaller than what will be supported by min. 3 joists, or 32". So " is the minimum for you.

==> Indeed, I was considering adding a second layer of subfloor since hte offset to add strength. So, I will plan on adding a second subfloor layer of 1/2 throughout. Then add durock board and finally the tiles themselves.

So? You want different type of flooring, expect different heights.



Let me double check to make sure I'm not missing something. I thought some or all of your " ply is not t&g and you might be installing some small pieces. I also recall you saying this.......

==> The 3/4 I am using are about 8ftx4ft large (mostly a limitation of my vehicle cargo capacity), and I plan on using larger ones soon. And, no they are not t&g; but they are good grade 3/4 plywood (ones without surface blemish)

I'm not sure what that means.

While we're at it did we ever talk about the framing to make sure they're stiff enough for tiles? Size of joists, spacing and unsupported span? Species and grade would be helpful too. How old is the house? Is that a basement or crawl space?


== The joists are about 16 off center (so they are pretty close) and they are fairly large ones at 2x10 (I have seen 2x4 used as joists). The house was built circa 1956. I don't know which grade they used though.

==>The house as a whole is large (with over 2200 sqft) and it has a small basement, lots of crawlspace and some slab as well; but the area I am working on (small kitchen) seats between a crawlspace (mostly crawlspace) and basement.



Jaz
Thanks!
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 10:59 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 217
Rewards Points: 402
Default


Run a dehumidifier and fans to accelerate the drying in the kitchen. Clean any area that appears to be growing mold with bleach and water solution. Let the place dry for at least 24-48 hours, den only start doing the work of renewing the kitchen subfloor.
fortunerestore is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to fortunerestore For This Useful Post:
tk3000 (05-17-2015)
Old 05-15-2015, 01:57 PM   #11
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 6,024
Rewards Points: 750
Default


tk3000,

16" on center spacing is the common spacing, nothing special.

2x10" joists are the most common used and are not an upgrade. Builders would not use 10" if 8" were enough to meet minimum specs for deflection. Remember, building to meet min. specs is the worst you can build something and have it pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk3000
I have seen 2x4 used as joists
My money says you have never seen that, with the possible exception of a very small lowered entryway that immediately steps up to the rest of the house.

Jaz
__________________
TILE GUY - retired- TROY, MI - Method & Product suitability consulting.

MARBLE from ITALY & GREECE -PERLATO-PERLATINO-BOTTICINO-THASSOS-SIVEC-VOLAKAS-CALACATTA- NAXOS-Slabs-Tiles-Custom containers shipped to you - [email protected]
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 07:10 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
tk3000,

16" on center spacing is the common spacing, nothing special.

2x10" joists are the most common used and are not an upgrade. Builders would not use 10" if 8" were enough to meet minimum specs for deflection. Remember, building to meet min. specs is the worst you can build something and have it pass.



My money says you have never seen that, with the possible exception of a very small lowered entryway that immediately steps up to the rest of the house.

Jaz
Indeed, I have not seen it myself but I saw pics and a post online long time ago and it was not a house.

Yep, I know builders usually stick to the bare minimum required by code. But the distressed house I bought seems to have be built to good standards; for instance, the subfloor for most of the house (that is not on a slab) seems to be 1 inch and 1/2.

Anyhow, I will have a break from the subfloor thing now and do other things. I will post in this thread soon. Thanks!
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 07:15 AM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Columbus, OH / Lansing, MI
Posts: 196
Rewards Points: 211
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by fortunerestore View Post
Run a dehumidifier and fans to accelerate the drying in the kitchen. Clean any area that appears to be growing mold with bleach and water solution. Let the place dry for at least 24-48 hours, den only start doing the work of renewing the kitchen subfloor.
Yeah, I am doing that now. There are some tiny small leaks which would instill an environment where mold develop; so it is being fixed. Also, I plan on install a whole house dehumidifier among other mitigating methods to hamper mold resurgence.
thanks
tk3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Washing machine making "glugging noise"; kitchen sink backing up; bad smells; UGH KDG Plumbing 5 01-04-2015 06:27 PM
Tiling kitchen - Subfloor has a hump. Bigmo59 Flooring 10 09-10-2014 10:29 PM
Kitchen, Dining Room, Pantry mprice214 Electrical 23 07-14-2014 11:45 AM
My new kitchen needs a facelift (oak cabinets have to stay) EclecticMom Interior Decorating 3 02-12-2012 09:45 PM
New floor/subfloor in kitchen. Need ideas DanBress Flooring 3 10-20-2008 08:31 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts