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Old 11-03-2008, 10:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarlisle View Post
I think that article was quite accurate actually, even calling dye sites "holes" for the countless others who read it and who are not purist-chemists. He calls them "dye sites" elsewhere so in that he is correct. Using an analogy is well within literary license IMO. Even if that had been written ONLY for chemical scholars, using the word "hole" is not an offense, so why Nestor does it offend you?

After all what was the purpose of the article and who was its target market?

Seems like a trivial reason to expound on your idea of using bleach on carpeting, but that's just me.

Carlisle:
No, the purpose of quoting this guy's web site wasn't to jump all over him for telling people that nylon has holes in it that allows the liquid dyes to penetrate into the nylon fiber. That's a very common misconception, and I'm not surprised to hear it one more time. The purpose of quoting this guy's web site was to illustrate to the original poster that misconceptions and misunderstandings are common in the carpet business too, even amongst supposed authorities, like the people who put together this carpet buyer's handbook.com website. If he sees that such a web site is clearly wrong in their understanding of nylon fiber and solution dying, then he won't be unduly influenced if some carpet salesman says something like "Never ever never use bleach on a carpet." He'll take that advice under consideration and proceed to torture a car floor mat size sample of solution dyed nylon carpet to see for himself whether the bleach does any perceptible harm to the carpet.

It certainly isn't trivial to tell people that they can use bleach to remove stains from solution dyed carpets. When you're paying a lot of money for a carpet, you want to make the best purchase decision possible. Unfortunately, most people choosing a carpet for their homes know SQUAT about carpeting, so their purchase decision usually ends up being based entirely on their impression of the carpet, the salesman, the advertising material, and whatever word of mouth they've gotten from other people. Telling someone that they can use bleach to remove any stain from a solution dyed carpet without harming the carpet is the trump card that makes them confident in their purchase decision, because in their mind, that is a tremendous advantage that trumps whatever "impressions" they may have formed in their former state of ignorance.

By the way, that carpet buyer's handbook.com web site was also wrong about it being "almost impossible to stain Olefin carpet". Polypropylene doesn't have any polar sites on it, so it's highly resistant to water based stains. However, it's highly susceptible to oil based stains. For example, candles can be coloured by either dyeing the exterior surface of the candle, or adding either dye or pigments to the wax (real bees wax or paraffin) to the wax. If the candle wax is pigmented, then it won't bond to the carpet fiber and will come out of the carpet along with the wax. However, if molten wax from a dyed candle gets on an Olefin carpet, you've got a permanent stain on the carpet even after removing the wax. But, since the dye is bound to the exterior of the polypropylene fiber, you can bleach that stain off the surface of the fiber without affecting the colour of the fiber.

If the authors of that carpet buyer's handbook understood that plastics like nylon, polypropylene and polyester are also coloured with pigments, they would have understood solution dyeing much better, and would not have made that statement that solution dyed fibers "are dyed through and through with colour". That just shows that they're not aware that the colour comes from pigments within the fiber, which is THE most basic difference between solution dyeing and conventional dyeing. If the authors of an authoritative web site can display such a lack of basic understanding, what level of knowledge can you realistically expect from the salesman at your local carpet retailer?

I just wanted the original poster to be fully prepared on his hunt to find the right carpet to be fully prepared to meet carpet salespeople who really didn't know much about the stuff, and would presume that he knew even less. And, of course, in an environment like that, it's best to torture a car floor mat size sample of solution dyed carpet with bleach and learn from the results you see with your own eyes rather than what you hear from other people.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 11-03-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 11:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Andynme View Post
Before you invest in carpet you might want to take a look at the FlexiTile interlocking tile at Lowe's........ A light coating of Armstrong Shine keeper makes it almost maintenance free.
I really think people should be warned away from using Armstrong or Mannington products because their high cost is a factor that runs contrary to maintaining floors well.

Armstrong and Mannington typically sell these products through retail stores, most often retail carpet outlets, where people also buy Armstrong and Mannington flooring. So, since those people don't know what other floor "wax" to buy, they opt for the Armstrong or Mannington products, and that's a mistake.

My personal experience maintaining the vinyl composition tile floors in 21 apartments over 20 years is that Armstrong or Mannington products are no better than those made by companies most people have never heard of, they just cost much more to buy, and that in itself is counter productive to the goal of optimal maintenance of the flooring.

There are only a half dozen or so companies in North America that make the acrylic resins used to make floor finishes, and neither Armstrong nor Mannington's name is on that list. Armstrong buys Shinekeeper from companies like Rohm & Haas, S. C. Johnson Wax, Eastman Chemical, Dow, Avmor or a few others that put the same floor finish they make for other companies into plastic bottles provided by Armstrong (or Mannington). Armstrong sells that stuff to their distributors, the distributors sell them to the retailers, and the retailers know they have the customer over a barrel. After all, Joe Q. Customer has just spent $2000 having new Armstong VC floor tiles (or Mannington sheet vinyl) installed in his house, and the poor guy knows squat about floor finishes, so he doesn't have a clue what floor finish to put on his new floor. So, he buys Armstrong Shinekeeper cuz he knows that Armstrong won't renege on his warranty if he's using their floor finish on their floor, and he presumes that Armstrong would provide the best products to maintain their floors.

The retail stores KNOW that poor Joe is bound by ignorance to buy the ShineKeeper, and therein lies the problem. By the time the chemical company sells the Shinekeeper to Armstrong, and Armstrong sells it to their distributors and their distributors sell it to the retail flooring outlets, and those retail stores make their normal 100% mark-up, a half gallon bottle of ShineKeeper ends up costing $40 ! (Which is as crazy as Gary Bussey.) And, similarily, a half gallon bottle of New Beginnings to remove the old floor finish (if this is a loyal repeat customer) costs about the same, too.

So, the customer copes with these high costs in the usual way, by buying less stripper and floor "wax" and using less of them.

The very first rule in maintaining floors is to use the floor maintenance products liberally. If you're stripping the finish off a floor, you want to use PLENTY of floor stripper to get the finish off completely and to keep it suspended in the liquid stripper so you can vaccuum it off the floor completely. If you're sealing a floor, you want to use plenty of sealer so that it forms a thick layer that's effective in protecting the floor from stains. If you're finishing a floor, you want to apply a THICK coat of finish so that the dirt that gets embedded into that finish by foot traffic can be scrubbed off in the traffic lanes and additional finish applied to replace the dirty stuff that was scrubbed off. If the coat of finish you apply is thinner than the road grit that gets embedded in it underfoot, then the floor finish isn't protecting the floor, and that road grit is becoming embedded right into the flooring too.

The problem is that the high cost of Armstrong NewBeginnings or ShineKeeper is an obstacle to people using PLENTY of them to do a proper job maintaining their floors.

For example, you can go to one of the places listed under "Janitorial Equipment & Supplies" in your yellow pages and buy a GALLON of Buckeye "Revelation" floor wax stripper for $25 or a gallon of Buckeye "CastleGuard" floor finish for $30 (including taxes at 12 percent in Manitoba). That's twice as much product for about half the price. That fact alone suggests to me that the floor will be better maintained than if the owner used less of the significantly more expensive products marketed by Armstrong or Mannington. And, on top of all that, you use NewBeginnings straight. Armstrong says nothing about diluting the stuff. Typically you'd dilute Revelation with 10 parts water if you're using a machine to strip the floor, or 5 parts water if you're doing it by hand with a Scotchbrite pad. That is, you normally DILUTE other wax strippers with water, but you use New Beginnings straight.

I've installed Armstrong Excelon vinyl composition tiles in every apartment in my building, and I initially used Shinekeeper as a floor finish on them too. Until, that is, I phoned up the local S. C. Johnson Wax sales rep and he came out to see why I'm having problems with my floors. I wasn't able to strip my ShineKeeper off my floors, I'd often have stains penetrated into the tiles even though Armstrong VC tiles came with a factory applied "sealer", and I wasn't getting the nice shine I'd seen on other VC tile floors. Basically, the problem was I wasn't using enough stripper, or sealer or finish. And, it wasn't until I started using much less expensive products from a janitorial supply store that I started applying a full gallon of sealer AND a full gallon of finish in each apartment floor that the problems disappeared. Prior to that, the thickness of floor finish on my floors wasn't even enough to completely cover the surface roughness of the floor tiles, which is why I didn't have a really nice gloss on the floors like I should have had.

If you're looking for a really good floor "wax", look no further than S. C. Johnson Wax's "Carefree", which comes in either a high gloss or matte finish. The reason why it's better than ShineKeeper (despite costing half as much) is that it's made to be less than completely water resistant. It softens up quite a bit when it gets wet and stays wet for a while. So, when you periodically clean your floor, leaving the floor wet for longer will soften the Carefree floor finish, allowing you to scrub off any embedded dirt in the traffic lanes easily with an abrasive pad like a Scotchbrite pad. That way you can scrub off any ground in dirt, getting the floor really clean. Then, you just allow the floor to dry and add another coat of Carefree to replace the stuff you scrubbed off. I don't believe for a minute that using Armstrong's "Once N' Done" floor cleaner on ShineKeeper would do anywhere near as good a job cleaning a floor than that.

Armstrong and Mannington floor maintenance chemicals cost more, but my short lived experience using them has left me with the impression that they're not as good as less expensive products despite their higher cost. And, that high cost is conducive to poor floor maintainance because people are inclined to use less product than they otherwise would.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 11-04-2008 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 11-30-2018, 02:10 AM   #18
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I would first check for moisture migration through the slab before deciding which route to go. Tape down a clear plastic sheet 2' by 2' overnight to see if moisture collects under the sheet. Then you make a more informed choice.

Last edited by Hidyi; 11-30-2018 at 02:12 AM.
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