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Old 11-20-2009, 12:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 1sthomebuyer View Post
what is a load of ....?

No, I never signed a contract or anything. We went over what it would cost to do what.
I meant his trying to get a week's wages was way out of line
I could see a contractor maybe asking for an hour or two's pay if they felt they were "used"
But without an agreement - verbal or written, specified start date....

As far as the church guy taking $$ out of his employers pocket
I've worked in IT for years & many bosses actually gave me work
They didn't want to deal with some people/companies
And it was a way of giving me a bonus that wasn't out of their pocket

I did find one NJ Township plumbing permit that indicates that HOWEOWNERS can do their own plumbing (Exempt Applicant). Once you HIRE someone they need a license etc. I'm not sure how it works if a Homeowner hires someone to assist them....?

Hacks & people working under the table DO take $$ out of every Pro's pocket
There are far too many stories posted on here of people coming looking for help after a terrible job has been done by a hack



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Old 11-20-2009, 01:18 PM   #32
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As far as the church guy taking $$ out of his employers pocket
I've worked in IT for years & many bosses actually gave me work
They didn't want to deal with some people/companies
And it was a way of giving me a bonus that wasn't out of their pocket
Dave,
The difference there is your employer had the option of bidding and obtaining the work. Whatever the reason they decided it was not worth the time to do the project. Your employer choose to allow you to bid and obtain the work. That is a much different scenario. Also you do not have the whole license issue with ITT work. It's apples to oranges.
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:20 PM   #33
 
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I didn't know about the plumbing license stuff and have learned a lot I didn't know before. Next time I will make sure that I do a lot of research before starting any project.

Nevertheless, Thank you for all of your replies. Many of you were very helpful even if you weren't quite so nice about it. Many of you have judged me just on the statement that my friend was from church. I came here to find help and wished I would have gotten more constructive help rather than judgment. I just wish that those of you who have been doing this for a long time or are licensed contractors remember that there are many people out there who do not have the knowledge or experience that you have. We shouldn't be frowned upon because of our ignorance. In my case, I just wanted to know where I stand. Thank you for pointing out my errors (over and over again), I will be sure to take responsibility for them.
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:32 PM   #34
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In my opinion, you are "legally" right. This is also why many contractors do not give free estimates. You may or may not be sued. One other thing to be aware of is a visit from a local inspector who is there to see the work permit for the job. This type situation always troubles me. I have done estimates where, from the start, I knew the job would not be done by me. One hint was the potential customer asking for a drawing, with measurements, of what I would be doing. I knew he was looking for tutoring and had no plan to let anyone do the work. I charge for estimates, unless I am awarded the job.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 1sthomebuyer View Post
I didn't know about the plumbing license stuff and have learned a lot I didn't know before. Next time I will make sure that I do a lot of research before starting any project.

Nevertheless, Thank you for all of your replies. Many of you were very helpful even if you weren't quite so nice about it. Many of you have judged me just on the statement that my friend was from church. I came here to find help and wished I would have gotten more constructive help rather than judgment. I just wish that those of you who have been doing this for a long time or are licensed contractors remember that there are many people out there who do not have the knowledge or experience that you have. We shouldn't be frowned upon because of our ignorance. In my case, I just wanted to know where I stand. Thank you for pointing out my errors (over and over again), I will be sure to take responsibility for them.
NJ isn’t as bad as some states. You have that to be thankful for. Here in Florida, a license and a permit, and inspections are required for, honestly, almost ANYTHING you do to your own property. And California has something like 46 (not sure exactly) different construction related licenses. But you can find that stuff online if you ever need to know it. You can, however, be fairly certain that whatever you want to do, it will probably have to be at least permitted, if not performed by a licensed professional.

And it is also a strangely positive point that you came here instead of going to our sister forum where all the “pros” hang out. You ain’t seen judgmental comments till you feel the boots of a few of those guys grinding on the back of your neck.

And as long as this thread lives here, you can be assured that the comments will continue to occasionally drift in. And they will be the same old crap, revisited, almost every time. May I suggest something? Open each new post with the whimsical attitude that says, “I wonder if this new poster will rise to originality, or will it be just the SOS?” “And if so, which point will this new guy decide he has to jump on.”

It can actually bring some lighthearted humor to being here.

I find, on any forum, it is not what someone says to me, but rather, what point of worthwhile value I can glean from the comments……… AND how I view myself after I reply. That’s really the important life lesson to posting on a forum like this. And by the way, I’d like to say your attitude and demeanor came out looking pretty good here. Most people run or attack when confronted with some of the sharp barbs we’ve hurled your way.

Undoubtedly, you received more admonishment from me about the spiritual aspects of this situation than anyone else. I apologize if it hurt you. But you already know there’s no way I would not point out some of those things. Too bad you don’t yet have Private Messaging, I honestly would rather have kept it in that venue. But if it got either of us to thinking a little more than usual, it was useful. I know that I began looking at a few areas of my own life that I’m not doing so well in as a result of this thread. That’s alright. Steel sharpening steel.

So hang around some. We’ll all still continue to exhibit some of our rougher sides, I’m sure, but I think you’ll find it interesting.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:22 PM   #36
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We all do. If that weren't a fact of life, we'd all be out walking on water somewhere. You certainly aren't alone in that aspect of your life.
he used an unlicensed cheap "friend" to do the plumbing and you have to rub it in with the walking on water bit.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:39 PM   #37
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he used an unlicensed cheap "friend" to do the plumbing and you have to rub it in with the walking on water bit.
I appreciate your coming to her defense. That would be admirable, if necessary.

I'm not too sure what you meant with the rubbing it in stuff. But I know she knows what I meant. And I suspect it was not what you saw. It kind of depends upon the perspective from which you are reading, I imagine.

But I guess I owe it to you to elaborate more.

What a "walking on water" comment like that means to a Christian is that we would already have attained what we are striving for here... to be more like Jesus. And none of us have done so, nor will we while we yet breathe. So what I'm fairly certain she will read is that she needn't be too hard on herself because none of us are anywhere near perfect yet.
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:36 PM   #38
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I am new here and not looking to step on anyones toes. Actually I can see it from both sides, but WHAT IF, the homeowner (God Forbid) had gotten laid off and couldn't afford to get the work done? Should she still pay him something? How could he have not found a job to replace that time slot if there wasn't one? Offering a free quote (IMHO) is the cost of doing business. If he said here is a quote, but if you decide NOT go to with me it will be $100 for my time that would be different. Of course the homeowner, (at least I would) would say don't bother. Gas money, truck maintenance, time, it is all the cost of doing business. He did not do anything, (except provide a "FREE" quote). What if there were 5 contractors bidding, only one is going to get the job, should the others be paid for something? Again NOT trying to start something, just my opinion!
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:54 PM   #39
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I am new here and not looking to step on anyones toes. Actually I can see it from both sides, but WHAT IF, the homeowner (God Forbid) had gotten laid off and couldn't afford to get the work done? Should she still pay him something? How could he have not found a job to replace that time slot if there wasn't one? Offering a free quote (IMHO) is the cost of doing business. If he said here is a quote, but if you decide NOT go to with me it will be $100 for my time that would be different. Of course the homeowner, (at least I would) would say don't bother. Gas money, truck maintenance, time, it is all the cost of doing business. He did not do anything, (except provide a "FREE" quote). What if there were 5 contractors bidding, only one is going to get the job, should the others be paid for something? Again NOT trying to start something, just my opinion!
O.K. look at it this way:
Your boss hands you plans and specifications for project X and asks you to give him/her a quote on the completion of project X. You invest 10 hours total in gathering the information and estimating the cost to do project X. You get your paycheck and it is 10 hours short. You confront your boss that you had time and money into generating those figures and he/she says we don't get compensated for that time so neither do you. Doesn't sit to well does it?

Quote fees do not remotely cover the cost and time to do most estimates but they are useful in deterring tire kickers and and people looking for the lowest bidder. If you want someone to invest the time to give you a truly accurate cost to do the project and are indeed planning to do the project these fees should be of minor importance to you.

I for one will give free "ballpark" quotes over the phone if it is a standard project like say a pressure treated deck if the person can provide some basic information to me over the phone. I will not guarantee them to be the actual cost of completion hence the term "ballpark". If I have to invest time in driving out to the site, discussing the project, reviewing plans and specifications, getting material price quotes from suppliers, getting price quotes from sub-trades, and developing an accurate price cost then I want to make sure the person is serious and not just curious as to the cost to do a said project. After all why should my paying clients have to pay for people that are price shopping. In the end that's what happens if you do not weed out those who are not serious about having work done. It increases overhead which is then passed along to paying clients.

Nothing in this world is free. Somebody always ends up paying in the end.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:57 PM   #40
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You win some and lose some. I agree with the scotsman, it is the price of doing business. I can understand the frustration of the contractor putting in the time, having a verbal agreement only to find out he did not get the job after all.

As far as the analogy from ARI001 the big difference is the person is an employee. If the owner did not pay the negotiated price, then that is a breach of contract since the employee actually did the work (other than the bid).

An employee does not share in the huge profits or losses as the owner of the company would. An employee chooses not to take the risk for greater reward.

The short time I was self employed I would never think of charging someone for a "free" estimate, (and I gave plenty) you have to work that price into the jobs that you do get. I would also never think of suing someone for something that I said was free to begin with.

Did they have a contract? The courts can decide that, maybe a verbal if that would stand up in court.

If I where the contractor I would seriously consider the damage it is doing to my reputation. If I where a neighbor of the person involved,I would not even consider having that contractor coming out to give me a bid. To me it appears the contractor is a bit of a hot head and I would be concerned how he would act if other issues came up. Had this issue not come up the person may have given him a good reference and explain why he did not use them.

I would be curious how long this contractor has been in business, I don't think it will be very long if he continues to threaten potential customers with lawsuits.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:03 PM   #41
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Nothing in this world is free. Somebody always ends up paying in the end.
Yep and in the commercial/industrial world, it is the contractor that pays for the quote. More accurately we call it a bid because you are bidding in an attempt to get the job.

I have seen many jobs take 40 hours, or more, to establish a bid for a job only to see the job go to another company and all the other companies that bid on the job got squat.

that is how the big boys do business. Bids are part of operating costs and if you have an estimator that continually fails to secure work, you figure out why and rectify it.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:14 PM   #42
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You really can't compare an employee working hourly or for a salary to a contractor placing a FREE quote

Free is free to the homeowner, not free to the contractor as far as his costs



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Old 11-24-2009, 06:21 PM   #43
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You really can't compare an employee working hourly or for a salary to a contractor placing a FREE quote

Free is free to the homeowner, not free to the contractor as far as his costs
I agree completely.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:50 PM   #44
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You really can't compare an employee working hourly or for a salary to a contractor placing a FREE quote

Free is free to the homeowner, not free to the contractor as far as his costs
I also agree

There are those that work for others for some type of predetermined scale of compensation and then there are the rest of us that live off of what is left over.

Comparing the two seems counter productive under the theme of this thread.

Comparing this thread and beating a dead horse on the other hand.....
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:36 PM   #45
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We are waiting to see if the OP comes back with an update
But he hasn't been to the site in 3 days



Discussion on Estimates/Contracts moved to a new Thread (now open)

http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/discus...ntracts-57939/



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