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Old 04-12-2019, 10:06 AM   #16
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


So you think that front wall can be removed?
Is that a professional backed opinion or just a DIY'ers guess?
Any other checks or things i can do to validate mine and your assumptions aside from hiring a structural engineer to come in?
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:21 AM   #17
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Just check the rest of the pantry ceiling to make sure all the joists go beyond the pantry door header over to the dining wall (the pics didn't show the whole ceiling). And simultaneously the joists coming in from over the dining should extend a little past the dining wall (like the one viewed in the pic shows). Everything is always a guess when not on the site, but some might accuse me of being a professional.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:34 AM   #18
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Yes, all the joist over the dinning room stop short of the pantry header by about 3".
The only questionable joist would be that shown in the first photo of post #2. Not sure how far that one goes. Above that should be the exterior wall of the 2nd floor that butts up to the attic of the garage.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:05 AM   #19
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by WILL1E View Post
Yeah...not sure what the heck they were thinking with that island. That was a big factor driving this model aside from everything being outdated in general.

My non-professional hypothesis is the same as you stated in #12.
If it was truely load bearing, i would think there would be more than 1 2x4 on either side of the opening to support that header. Secondly, the header isn't even resting on those 2x4's...there's a gap so it doesn't appear to be weight bearing down on it.

So if i can eliminate everything on that front wall it will salvage most of this idea. All i'd like to do if possible to that right wall is move is back a hair. Right now the finished face is ~29", i'd like it to be 24" so that it's flush with the cabinet box.
The 2x4 sitting on the wall is just drywall backing for the ceiling.

The joist behind that is sitting on the wall but it only needs 1 1/2" bearing so maybe you need one more stud below the end of it to remove the wall.
A header for a door up to five feet needs 1 jack stud on each sides.
Headers often shrink after the installation and the nails are holding it and will until there is a great load added from above.





If the beam in the basement continues to the other side of the closet you have 3 choices to move the header.
1 Hanger nailed into the cluster of studs below the joists.
2 A hanger nailed into the end of the beam for a header above the ceiling.
3 A header on the wall beside the beam again above the ceiling.


All three would work as long as there is bearing below the wall on the left side of the closet.
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Last edited by Nealtw; 04-12-2019 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:31 AM   #20
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealtw View Post
If the beam in the basement continues to the other side of the closet you have 3 choices to move the header.
1 Hanger nailed into the cluster of studs below the joists.
2 A hanger nailed into the end of the beam for a header above the ceiling.
3 A header on the wall beside the beam again above the ceiling.
.
From the pics and his description, the joists are laid out as drawn. That makes the pantry door header not as it would seem what it's for. He can then remove the entire front wall of the pantry completely.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:55 AM   #21
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


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Originally Posted by 3onthetree View Post
From the pics and his description, the joists are laid out as drawn. That makes the pantry door header not as it would seem what it's for. He can then remove the entire front wall of the pantry completely.
But they have 3 green joists bearing only on the floor below, how much do you had to a cheat.
One blue joist doesn't each the back wall and the span of the blue joist comes into question.


The drop beam is easy and he would just notch the back of the uppers to hide it,



On the exterior wall he would need a king and 2 jacks and cut 2" into the double plate for the header.

on the back wall a 2x4 for drywall backing

a 2 ply header and double hanger
And one more stud on that cluster to carry the one joist in the wall to be removed.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:43 PM   #22
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


As 3onthetree illustrated, the 3 right-most blue joist all land on the rear wall of the pantry.
The 4th blue joist has no bracket and must be toe nailed to the red beam as shown in my photos.
If i peak between the gap of the 4 green joist where it hits the beam, i can see that the 5th green joist is mounted with a hanger (and not all the holes are filled with nails ).
The 1st floor beam is directly in line with the red beam that 3onthetree illustrated.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:51 PM   #23
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


@Nealtw ... What would adding a drop beam below the joist at the back of the pantry do any differently than what that back pantry wall is already doing?
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Old 04-12-2019, 01:08 PM   #24
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealtw View Post
But they have 3 green joists bearing only on the floor below
Yes for that short section of the back pantry wall. But in the same way if the header for the pantry front wall was carrying load from the joist above, then you'd have a point load at the pantry corner which would then be carried by the floor instead of the basement beam as well.

I was initially surprised the (3)2x beam was not continued over to the other wall of the pantry, but there must have been a reason. The breakfast table dimension is 11'-some and where the wall between living/family is makes even longer joists (unless there's no 2nd floor there), so I'm guessing the stair location shifted where they actually wanted the main bearing wall to be.
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Old 04-12-2019, 01:23 PM   #25
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3onthetree View Post
Yes for that short section of the back pantry wall. But in the same way if the header for the pantry front wall was carrying load from the joist above, then you'd have a point load at the pantry corner which would then be carried by the floor instead of the basement beam as well.

I was initially surprised the (3)2x beam was not continued over to the other wall of the pantry, but there must have been a reason. The breakfast table dimension is 11'-some and where the wall between living/family is makes even longer joists (unless there's no 2nd floor there), so I'm guessing the stair location shifted where they actually wanted the main bearing wall to be.
If the beam is at it's limit for span where they stopped it and if they had continued it thru the closet, all would be good until the OP came and asked about the wall and every one here would have agreed to take it out and the beam would be over spanned. And the original engineer would be on the hook for that, so he likely would not allow the extension.
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Old 04-12-2019, 01:35 PM   #26
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by WILL1E View Post
@Nealtw ... What would adding a drop beam below the joist at the back of the pantry do any differently than what that back pantry wall is already doing?

It shortens the span of those three joist to the same as the ones hung off the beam. So no extra bounce upstairs.



It doesn't add the extra weight to the living floor, because that back wall is already a cheat, there is a limited amount of weight you want to put on the cheat like that.


You can't get a guarantee on the bad things that can happen.
I would not take the chance of a floor up stairs becoming a little more bouncy and then transfer that load and or vibration on the living room floor.


45 minutes install a beam , notch the back top of a cupboard that may never get used.


Your choice.
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Old 04-12-2019, 02:53 PM   #27
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


So if i put a header in line with the current beam, using a hanger on one side and studs on the other...what size 2x could i get away with?
This header would be reducing my cabinet depth from 24" to 7".
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Old 04-12-2019, 02:54 PM   #28
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Above the pantry is a walk in closet.
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Old 04-12-2019, 03:17 PM   #29
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by WILL1E View Post
So if i put a header in line with the current beam, using a hanger on one side and studs on the other...what size 2x could i get away with?
This header would be reducing my cabinet depth from 24" to 7".
We seldom do less than 2x10s but I would think a double 2x8 would do it.
You can go up high right under the joist and just just loose 7+ inches from the top. Or with a bunch more work you could put it up in the joists and make it disappear.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:31 AM   #30
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Re: Trying to determine what's load bearing and what's not in this pantry...


Well, the front wall has been removed and the right side wall has been shortend about 5" so that it will flush out with the cabinets!
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