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Old 06-10-2012, 03:21 PM   #1
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redoing improper rear supports in garage ceiling


Hi all,
I had a property inspection done on a house I'm purchasing. The inspector flagged the real supports as shown in the two photos as being improperly attached to the walls. What is the process for repairing this situation?

Thanks
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Old 06-10-2012, 03:37 PM   #2
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Go back and find another inspector. Can you post a better picture than that close up, showing the Rafters as they go from one wall to the other. If it has stood this long, the walls are not bowed out, nor is the roof sagging, I would go on and take the next move. If this is the only thing they noted, just say fine, tell them thanks and if you like the place, go for it.

Majority of the Home Inspectors lost their jobs in the construction industry, due to the down turn, or came from doing stuff like desk jobs or retail, and have never done a lick of work in the construction industry, or grew up in the construction business, by having family that did it.

I would say, that in reality that HI's are there to scare people in thinking that there may be a problem, and most that are recommended by the realtor are in cahoots with the realtor. Again, if you really want to find out how they came to the conclusion that there is a problem, ask them by what information, or what book they are going by, or did they consult with an engineer in building construction, to determine if older methods of construction are not valid, and if the HI can, show written proof how they deduced that what they saw was not meeting the standards of the time the structure was built.



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Old 06-10-2012, 03:41 PM   #3
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Here is another photo. There does not appear to be any damage (nor did the inspector note any damage) to the walls or ceiling.

The way he described the problem is that the large beams running across the garage are not directly attached to the wall but to the small piece of wood.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:50 AM   #4
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Home made joist hangers?

It more than likely hasn't gone anywhere because all its doing is holding just wood itself up. If you had a ceiling or stored something up there maybe a different story.

Depends how many of the small white boards there are like the one to the left in the first photo. If this also spans the length then it is these boards that prevent the wall from spreading. Many times they are placed only every other rafter pair.

As long as the rafters are tied together the ceiling joists are decoration. You could remove the chucks of board and put in joist hangers but I would be suspect of the joists for very much. They have a splice in them and they are hung from the rafters. To get that right is complex.... still it appears to have been working for a long time.

If you do not have rafter ties you can either install just above the wall level like the one in the photo or if you have issues getting boards in there they make flat steel coil designed for this purpose.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:06 AM   #5
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Your inspector was right to flag this. That is an improper way to frame a connection.

Since this is a stick built roof, the load calculations for each member of the roof are dependent on the connections.

My fear is that typically the lowest chord on a truss is in tension and holds the rafters from spreading. In your case, it appears that the bottom chord is not tied back to the rafter at all, and rather is tied to the wall putting excess loading on the ridge connection.

I would have a good framer come over and take a look at it and figure out a way to address the potential deficiency.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:48 PM   #6
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The lower ceiling joist requires direct nailing to the rafter, not just abutting the wall below the rafter bearing; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par018.htm

Last Table, bottom of page, 3-39 nails through the ceiling joist into the rafter, depending on span, snow load; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par023.htm

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Old 06-11-2012, 04:14 PM   #7
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thanks for the replies.

Can anyone point me to some pictures of what a correctly done job should look like? Can I just install joist hangers like here

http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Pr...ngers/View-All
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rufflesinc View Post
Here is another photo. There does not appear to be any damage (nor did the inspector note any damage) to the walls or ceiling.

The way he described the problem is that the large beams running across the garage are not directly attached to the wall but to the small piece of wood.
Curiosity,
The 2 - 2 x 8 shown here doesn't appear to be supported at the left end. It appears that this was a beam to hold up the seams for the joists and somebody cut it off, sistered the new 2 by on the one joist to bridge the seam. Do I see the end of L shaped aluminum connecting the beam to the rafter? So the rafter is now holding up the beam?
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Old 06-11-2012, 05:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rufflesinc View Post
thanks for the replies.

Can anyone point me to some pictures of what a correctly done job should look like? Can I just install joist hangers like here
Joist hangers are the simple part and they are installed like your link.

Your problem is joists normally prevent the wall from spreading. If you think about the walls tilting out at the top why would the nails just not pull out of the joist hangers. This is why these are normally nailed into the side of the rafters.

Now if you have a second set of boards that connect the bottom end of the rafters then those prevent the walls from spreading and the joist hangers will only have to hold the other boards up. Making sure at least every other pair of rafters are connected at the bottom is key to making sure the building does not fall down. It would most likely fail when you had snow on it....or some day when you were walking on it.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #10
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Can you get another pic farther back? Is there some way to post a outside pic? Also, was there any other points that the HI stated in the report about other defect? The only reason that there is a inherent hatred about HI's, is that most do not have a clue, but there are those that attempt to follow the rules and go by their training, but do not have a copy of the NEC's for various code cycles, or same with IRC cycles.

If you plan on replacing that structure sometime soon, I would just fix any problem areas to keep it standing, or get the loan to cover the garage replacement with a more modern structure. Now, is this a attached unit, or detached?



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