How To Hold Up Sagging Ceiling Joist? - Building & Construction - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Old 10-29-2014, 05:33 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 8
Default

How to hold up sagging ceiling joist?


Hi all,

I'm hoping you can help me out with some sagging ceiling joists.

Below is an illustration(it's bigger if you click it) of the sunroom on the front of my house. The three joists running down the center of the room, the ones holding the attic ladder, where already sagging a bit when I bought the house. Just the other day I was in and out of the attic quite a bit and now the door onto the sunroom is hitting the ceiling fan, where before it would just miss it. I assume those three joists have been sagging slowly over the years and it wasn't noticeable until now.

As illustrated, there are two 2x4 beams running across the tops of the joists. The beams are toenailed straight down into the joists, but there is a large gap between the top of the joists and the bottom of the 2x4s. It would seem that weight on the ladder is slowly pulling them further away.

What would you recommended attaching the joists to the beams with after I jack them back up? The nails just aren't cutting it.
Attached Thumbnails
How to hold up sagging ceiling joist?-scaled-porch.png  
Mr. Perfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-29-2014, 05:47 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 36,623
Rewards Points: 18,384
Default


What size are the joist?
What's the span?
That stair way should have had a double header not just one 2X on each end, your also missing any support along the side of it.
Useless trying to toe nails those 2 X 4's to the joist! Toe nailing has little pullout resistance. It's mostly use then the wood is under compression to stop it from moving from side to side.
Should have been 2, at least 2 X 4's nailed together to form an L shape. 2 X 6's would be better.
__________________
When posting in forums, letting us know your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions
joecaption is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joecaption For This Useful Post:
jack45870 (10-30-2014)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-29-2014, 08:42 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 290
Rewards Points: 324
Default


Once you have removed the sag, use something like this http://www.mii.com/site/frameset.asp...%3Fpid%3D12291 to fix the joists to the strong backs, instead of the nails you have there now.
mgp roofing is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-30-2014, 03:27 PM   #4
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 8
Default


The joists are 2x4s, one continuous board about 17' 5" long.

There are 2x4s down the sides of the ladder unit, spanning the headers. The grey box is the entire ladder assembly, I just got lazy and didn't draw the whole ladder unit up.

I don't suppose there's an easy way to get a double header in there now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgp roofing View Post
Once you have removed the sag, use something like this to fix the joists to the strong backs, instead of the nails you have there now.
The mii site doesn't seem to like being linked to, it just drops me back to the main page for the timer connectors. Could you please tell me which connector it was?
Mr. Perfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 03:49 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 385
Rewards Points: 416
Default


Having installed attic stairs into an existing house without it's not that hard to add another board to the "header". Use a sawzall with the blade upside down and cut the 2x4's going into the headers 1.5" back. When you get to the bottom you kind of pull the sawzall back while cutting so you don't go through the ceiling. You could get it as low as you feel safe and then use a chisel. Even if you go through the ceiling it's nothing a little compound, sanding, and paint can't handle.

I don't think much will help prevent the sagging if you don't sister the supports. Wood gets its strength by its height.

A single 2x6 is 228% stronger than a 2x4. Two 2x4's put together is still noticeably weaker than a single 2x6.

A single 2x8 is 202% stronger than a 2x6. That means, a single 2x8 is stronger than two 2x6's put together (but close enough to be the same). It would take five 2x4's put together to be stronger than a single 2x8 (and they wouldn't be stronger by much)!

A single 2x10 is 61% stronger than a 2x8.

A single 2x12 is 34% stronger than a 2x10.

I'd sister the joists with 2x6's or 2x8's and you typically don't need to go the full length. Go as far as you can, but it's okay for the ends not to go the full distance. You'll have a much stronger system, 2x4's really can't cut it for anything needing lateral support (horizontal) unless it's a truss system. But, if it's a truss system you need to know what you're doing to cut it (it's not supposed to be cut).

Last edited by Piedmont; 10-30-2014 at 04:04 PM.
Piedmont is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Piedmont For This Useful Post:
wkearney99 (10-30-2014)
Old 10-30-2014, 05:11 PM   #6
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,705
Rewards Points: 558
Default


2"X4"'s are a poor excuse for ceiling joists and even worse is the span. No one could expect that to work for long. I think I'd be up there building some trestles to hang those 2X's from.

Why is there an easy access attic door there? I hope you aren't using that area for any kind of storage.
__________________
XXX
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 05:19 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 36,623
Rewards Points: 18,384
Default


2 X 4's where not even enough to properly hang sheetrock from.
__________________
When posting in forums, letting us know your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions
joecaption is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 05:46 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 385
Rewards Points: 416
Default


If you're curious, here's a chart I got from I believe it was the wood council. This also has to do with deflection, a 2x4 can hold more than the below without breaking but its deflection (bending from the weight) would be more than anything you'd want.

2x4 10ft long can hold 184 lbs spread evenly before it "bends" too much to be desirable
2x6 10ft long can hold 420 lbs (2.28x more than a 2x4)
2x8 10ft long can hold 850 lbs (2.02x more than a 2x6)
2x10 10ft long can hold 1370 lbs (1.61x more than a 2x8)
2x12 10ft long can hold 1840 lbs (1.34x more than a 2x10)

Maybe the above is easier to read that two 2x4's 10ft long would hold 368lbs before bending too much, which is less than a single 2x6 which can hold 420 lbs before it does the same.

Last edited by Piedmont; 10-30-2014 at 05:51 PM.
Piedmont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 08:46 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far sw sub chicago
Posts: 6,668
Rewards Points: 996
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
2"X4"'s are a poor excuse for ceiling joists and even worse is the span. No one could expect that to work for long. I think I'd be up there building some trestles to hang those 2X's from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecaption View Post
2 X 4's where not even enough to properly hang sheetrock from.
you guys should go back in time, to tell those guys that built our houses
and i would like to know what they said to you.
Fix'n it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2014, 01:26 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 290
Rewards Points: 324
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Perfect View Post



The mii site doesn't seem to like being linked to, it just drops me back to the main page for the timer connectors. Could you please tell me which connector it was?
Ceiling Ties, see pic.

As for those on here complaining about the sizes of lumber used years ago, the lumber used years ago was far better quality than that used now--back then it was either old growth virgin forest that was harvested,or plantation trees that were actually allowed to grow to maturity before being cut. Nowadays the trees are harvested at 20-25 years old, and often the mills don't even want any logs bigger than 300mm (12") diameter!
I have a roof area over my laundry that has 3x2 rafters, built in 1976; code now requires 6x2 for the same span & loads. It has not sagged at all, and the 3x2 took longer to grow than the 6x2s I used when I extended the roof
Attached Thumbnails
How to hold up sagging ceiling joist?-ceiling-ties.jpg  
mgp roofing is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mgp roofing For This Useful Post:
Mr. Perfect (11-02-2014)
Old 11-02-2014, 12:21 AM   #11
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 8
Default


Heh, I imagine there are quite a few things that aren't up to code in this house these days. It was built in 1959, so it's a good 55 years behind. But no, nothing is stored on top of those joists, there's plywood on top of the support beams that leads into the attic space over the main house.

Thanks for re-posting the connectors. They're used in pairs then?
Mr. Perfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 05:41 AM   #12
Retired Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kane county,Illinois
Posts: 25,728
Rewards Points: 7,174
Default


Any possibility of removing the ceiling joists and the replacing them with new ones running across the short width?

Or --add 2x6 or 2x8 stiff backs above the existing joists (perpendicular to the existing)
And then hanging the old from the new stiff backs?
__________________
New members: Adding your location to your profile helps in many ways.--M--
oh'mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 06:12 PM   #13
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 8
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by oh'mike View Post
Any possibility of removing the ceiling joists and the replacing them with new ones running across the short width?

Or --add 2x6 or 2x8 stiff backs above the existing joists (perpendicular to the existing)
And then hanging the old from the new stiff backs?
Yes, I think I'll grab some 2x6s and make better stiff backs using the timber connectors that mgp roofing posted. I'm not sure what removing existing structures would do, so I'll just add to it.
Mr. Perfect is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mr. Perfect For This Useful Post:
oh'mike (11-02-2014)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ceiling joist KShirriff Building & Construction 27 10-15-2012 08:48 PM
Ceiling Joist Size russ_mc Building & Construction 7 02-24-2012 05:06 PM
Level a subfloor with sagging joist for hardwood floor malicio Building & Construction 4 01-16-2011 05:40 AM
Bridging a ceiling Joist dR3w Building & Construction 1 01-05-2011 04:36 PM
Sagging Ceiling Joists - Adding Beam In Attic DoItMyselfToo Building & Construction 11 11-30-2010 07:20 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts