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Old 08-25-2016, 11:09 AM   #1
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Garage Framing


Hello everyone. I bought a home in Sarasota, FL with 5 acres and it has an accessory building... sort of. What is there is a semi rotted half metal building on a post frame. It is a 30x24 slab with 6 4x6 posts around the edges and 1 4x4 post in the center. Presumably the posts are set into some kind of footer. The slab is 4" thick. The edges of the slab go out past the post ends by about 1ft on all sides. Because of that I am concerned about how to direct water away from the sill plates. The concrete isn't sloped at that overhang. The posts in the center of the 30ft span are about 12" higher and 2x6's connect them. The roof members look to be 2x4's on joist hanger type clips. Those boards are long with no support in the middle and some of them are sagging from weather and rot (most of the roof blew off in past storms). The perimeter 2x6 or 2x8 doesn't look to be sagging much though. The roof is just light metal sheets.

I'd like to finish this into a proper insulated garage with a hip roof. The 4x6 posts are treated and still look good. My thought was to cut the posts level, bolt a 2x6 on each side and then tie the roof to that. Is that strong enough? My other thought was to do a sort of hybrid framing where I tie regular 16OC framing to the posts, but I don't know if the 4" concrete without proper footers underneath is strong enough. Given that I am in a no freeze area, footers are mainly just for weight support. I also don't know if the 4x6 posts are strong enough to hold a real hip roof with asphalt shingles.

Any input on what to do with this would be most welcome. I'd like to do it myself but I am a beginner when it comes to framing. I am considering getting a preengineered roof instead of doing it myself, but the calculations don't seem very complicated. Based on what I am reading since this is an ag building on ag land, I don't need permits or inspections, so it's up to me to make sure it's safe.

I had a thought on pouring new footers around the slab but that somehow seems complicated and unnecessary to me. At the same time, I would like to tie this thing down well so that it can survive a mild hurricane.

Last edited by pikuu; 08-25-2016 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:21 PM   #2
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Re: Garage Framing


How far above grade is the slab? Or is it flush with the ground like most slabs there?

If close or flush to the ground....and it was me...
I'd cut the posts out and fill the holes.
Then....
I'd either pour or lay a row of block to make a stem wall. Of course you would need to install anchor bolts into the existing concrete to hold the stem wall and bottom plate. After that, traditional wood framing.

This way you get your wood at least 8" away from the ground. Keeps it 'dryer' and less chance of termites. You also end up with a floor you can wash down without worrying about the walls getting wet.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:33 PM   #3
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Re: Garage Framing


Thanks for responding! The slab is about 1/2 to an inch off the ground in some places. It's actually pretty good because with all of our recent flooding that part of the property didn't flood out, but still, having a nice stem wall like that would be nice. I'm just curious of the mechanics. I've read in some places that you shouldn't tie footers/walls to the slab to allow for expansion, but this would create a joint for critters to come through. I could dig out around the slab and underneath somewhat to pour footers but I couldn't form the inside, it would just conform to the soil. On the outside I could build forms. I'm hitting books and researching but there are so many ways to do it.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:39 PM   #4
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Re: Garage Framing


Have a look at my garage build....link is in my signature
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:23 PM   #5
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Re: Garage Framing


----------------------Welcome to the forums!---------------------

Are the posts installed in concrete like a metal pole building... can't see adding CMU's under the whole building.... as they are both bearing and shear buried in the ground. You could pour new concrete at full perimeter except at drive apron for a water table, then add metal flashing to get the framing/siding code required distance from earth. Add waterproof between plate and concrete. Pics would help as would the beams sizes/spans...

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Old 08-26-2016, 08:29 PM   #6
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Re: Garage Framing


Took me a bit, but I finally have some pictures. They don't show as much as I thought they would, maybe I need to take down some weeds

The posts are 4x6. The beams appear to be 2x6. There is 135" between the posts on the short side and 185" between the posts on the longer side. The shorter posts on either end are 101" high and the ones in the center are about 112" high.
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Garage Framing-20160826_151346_resized.jpg   Garage Framing-20160826_151354_resized.jpg   Garage Framing-20160826_151404_resized.jpg  

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Old 08-27-2016, 11:10 AM   #7
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Re: Garage Framing


That's pretty rough looking. I'd take it all down....including the posts. I don't think you are going to get many more years out of them. I wouldn't waste the time and money trying to use them.

You are basically at grade level. Keeping water out is going to be an issue.

I think your best bet is pouring a stem wall...about a foot high and 8" wide around the perimeter. I can think of a few ways to do it.

Or grade the land around it and lower it.

Just remember, don't take shortcuts....it will not save you anything in the long run.
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:31 AM   #8
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Re: Garage Framing


So the resulting 12"x8" block is then considered a footer and will bear the weight of the building? Do I have to tie it to the slab in order to lock it down? Or maybe I should dig under the slab a bit to make a key? Just trying to envision all of this. Up north there would be a deep footer that I just don't have to worry about here at all. Indeed here the higher up I get the better (for the sake of flooding).

For what it's worth now seeing the decay on the bottoms of the posts, I agree, the posts need to be removed and not used.

Perhaps I am thinking of pouring it on the ground around the slab and you are thinking of installing anchors and then pouring on the perimeter of the slab. That would make sense. My only worry would be that the extra weight around the edge sitting on the slab would cause it to settle, crack the expansion joints in the middle and cause the middle to rise. My thought is that it is best for the weight of the walls/roof to be untied from the slab, but I guess one of those integrated slabs where the edges are thickened is basically the same thing. I'm probably overthinking it.

Last edited by pikuu; 08-27-2016 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:12 PM   #9
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Re: Garage Framing


Quote:
Originally Posted by pikuu View Post
So the resulting 12"x8" block is then considered a footer and will bear the weight of the building? Do I have to tie it to the slab in order to lock it down? Or maybe I should dig under the slab a bit to make a key? Just trying to envision all of this. Up north there would be a deep footer that I just don't have to worry about here at all. Indeed here the higher up I get the better (for the sake of flooding).

For what it's worth now seeing the decay on the bottoms of the posts, I agree, the posts need to be removed and not used.

Perhaps I am thinking of pouring it on the ground around the slab and you are thinking of installing anchors and then pouring on the perimeter of the slab. That would make sense. My only worry would be that the extra weight around the edge sitting on the slab would cause it to settle, crack the expansion joints in the middle and cause the middle to rise. My thought is that it is best for the weight of the walls/roof to be untied from the slab, but I guess one of those integrated slabs where the edges are thickened is basically the same thing. I'm probably overthinking it.
Just doing some further math on this. Concrete is 150 pounds per cubic foot. For my building size that much concrete (12"x8" around the perimeter) would only weigh 10,800 pounds. That's less than a lot of RV's. I would think that if hurricanes are a concern, it has to be tied to the slab at minimum but perhaps more steps should be taken.
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