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Old 07-09-2018, 01:06 PM   #1
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fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Hi,

I have a very narrow galley kitchen that I want to remove a wall from to open it up. I wonder if I might get some feedback as I will be picking up my LVL supports this week and begin the process of jacking up the sagging ceiling joists before installing them and then removing the wall.

I will install (2) 7-1/2" doubled up LVL beams that span 20', tied into structural walls on both ends. In the middle of the beam span I will build a kitchen island that is anchored on the (4) corners with 4x4 posts that will support both beams in the middle of their 20' span. So the beams will have (4) supports points; the (2) ends, tying into structural walls, and mid-way. The point over which the (4) 4x4 posts will be installed, underneath (1) is an 8x8 support beam in the basement, and beneath the other is a re-enforced wall I put up a couple of years ago, building a pantry in the basement, with this exact purpose of supporting a kitchen island above in mind.

There will also be (2) 4x4 posts installed between the (2) outside 4x4 posts anchoring the (4) corners of the island, with a single 7-1/2 LVL board spanning the (2) middle posts to support short overhead cupboards over the island.

There is a noticeable sag in the ceiling in between the one structural wall that the (2) LVL beams will tie into and the kitchen wall I plan to remove to open up the kitchen. I understand why there is a sag. The kitchen wall I will remove is the only wall supporting the ceiling for the 20' span in between the two structural walls. And this wall runs parallel with the joists in the ceiling. I expect that by jacking up the sagging joists and then running my LVL beams perpendicular to the ceiling joists that that should be more than enough support to support the ceiling and remove the sag permanently.

I have tried to insert an image of the layout that I hope helps to provide an overall picture of what I am planning.

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Old 07-09-2018, 01:13 PM   #2
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Ok I tried uploading image layout to another image host as the first one does not seem to have been embedded.

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Old 07-09-2018, 01:14 PM   #3
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Ok, it seems as though my links are not being included. Not sure why.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:17 PM   #4
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Maybe I can just paste the url for the image of the layour: https://imgur.com/hqZlYff
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:19 PM   #5
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


What is the ceiling. floor up stairs, trusses or ceiling joists with separate rafters?
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:21 PM   #6
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Ok great that worked. But I just noticed that in the image I didn't describe that the blue lines are the outline of the new kitchen island directly beneath the (2) new LVL beams on either end.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:22 PM   #7
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


It is a stick framed roof built in the 50's with a 4x6 center beam running the length of the house.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:27 PM   #8
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Additionally, I didn't have any easy way to get (4) full length 20' LVL beams back home.. So each 20' LVL beam will be made up a 12' and an 8' span, back-to-back so that there is a 2' overlap between the (2) 12' beams in the middle between the 4x4 posts.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:43 PM   #9
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


I don't understand the 2 foot overlap?
I would build the posts out of 4 2x4, the outside walls want 2 studs under the beam and solid blocking under the floor and in the wall down to concrete.
the inside posts would need solid blocking to the beam and wall below and or studs down to the floor.


An engineer would question the thickness of the concrete floor, whether it was a over a footing or not and they look at the height of the foundation to see if the weight will be distributed to a large enough area of the footing.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:11 PM   #10
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


The 2' overlap: each beam will consist of (4) lengths of LVL: (2) 12' and (2) 8' lengths. So (1) 12' and (1) 8' length together will make the 20' span between structural walls, and (2) of those 20' lengths will be sandwiched back-to-back to make a single beam. Therefore the (2) 12' lengths will necessarily overlap by 2' when sandwiched back-to-back. I hope that makes sense.

Quote:
I would build the posts out of 4 2x4
Do you mean instead of using the 4x4 posts anchoring the kitchen island to be built, or instead of using 7-1/2" LVL?

Great advice making sure the studs in the structural wall to which each end of the beam tie to carry on thru down to the concrete floor in the bsmt. I didn't think of that.

I was planning to sister the stud on either side of the stud supporting the beams so there are three studs ganged together supporting the beam.

I am planning to support the 4x4 posts on the (4) corners to the 8x8 beam and the re-enforced wall directly below.

There are 2'x2' concrete footers in the bsmt directly below the center beam in the ceiling that the 8"x8" support beams running perpendicular are supported by in the middle of the house. The kitchen island I will build straddles these footers above on the main floor by ~4' on the one side and ~2.5' on the other side.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:16 PM   #11
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Quote:
Originally Posted by naphelge View Post
The 2' overlap: each beam will consist of (4) lengths of LVL: (2) 12' and (2) 8' lengths. So (1) 12' and (1) 8' length together will make the 20' span between structural walls, and (2) of those 20' lengths will be sandwiched back-to-back to make a single beam. Therefore the (2) 12' lengths will necessarily overlap by 2' when sandwiched back-to-back. I hope that makes sense.


Do you mean instead of using the 4x4 posts anchoring the kitchen island to be built, or instead of using 7-1/2" LVL?

Great advice making sure the studs in the structural wall to which each end of the beam tie to carry on thru down to the concrete floor in the bsmt. I didn't think of that.

I was planning to sister the stud on either side of the stud supporting the beams so there are three studs ganged together supporting the beam.

I am planning to support the 4x4 posts on the (4) corners to the 8x8 beam and the re-enforced wall directly below.

There are 2'x2' concrete footers in the bsmt directly below the center beam in the ceiling that the 8"x8" support beams running perpendicular are supported by in the middle of the house. The kitchen island I will build straddles these footers above on the main floor by ~4' on the one side and ~2.5' on the other side.
We don't off set the beams like that they would but together on top of the post and I would make the post out of 3 2x4s to get good bearing for both beams. There are flat straps to join the beams together and to the post.
The 8x8 beam. Fill the wall with studs and add 2 2x8s to the face of the wall, the other end nail 2x8s together or use a 8x8 post.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:43 PM   #12
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Thanks for the feedback. You're suggestions and advice are forcing me think more critically about this project that I hope will help avoid pitfalls.

Ok, it just occurs to me that offsetting the two longer lengths so they overlap would increase their strength. I guess not. So I actually ordered (4) 12' and (4) 10' lengths. So if they should indeed just butt together without overlap, then I will cut down the 12' lengths to size the span correctly and leave the 10' lengths untouched.

I have toyed with the idea of using 6x6 instead of 4x4 posts, but thought maybe it would be overkill. So I can go 6x6 on the (4) corner posts anchoring the kitchen island, and still just go with 4x4 posts in the between to take the weight of the upper cabs over the island.

I have seen and even used (for my porch) structural braces for attaching cross-members to posts, and was planning to use something similar.

I added some missing detail to my original pix to show the relation of the 8"x8" horizontal beams in the bsmt, the concrete footers supporting them mid-way, re-enforced wall I built a couple of years back with the intention of supporting one end of this kitchen island helping to pin up the ceiling, as well as the location of the house's center beam in the ceiling.

https://imgur.com/a/U0fPz91

On the right side of the drawing where the LVL beams tie into the structural interior wall, that wall is directly over the 8"x8" beam. The opposite end, tying into the exterior structural wall, I just assume the wall sits on top of a a buried concrete footer for structural support.

I may have an issue with adding the suggested support in the floor immediately below the beam tie-points, down to the concrete floor in the bsmt. There is a closed stairwell on the other side of that wall and an electrical panel directly below in the bsmt. So opening the wall on either side at that point will pose an issue.

I wonder if I opened the wall on either side of the electrical panel and beefed up the studs as you suggest on both sides and then double up the, what I assume is already a double header over the electrical panel. If not I may need to re-think/position the LVL beam on the lower part of the drawing.

Of the (4) mid-way posts, the ones to the left-side will be positioned directly above the house's other 8"x8" horizontal beam in the bsmt, and the posts positioned on right-side will sit on top of the re-enforced wall built below.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:56 PM   #13
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


structural braces = hangers????
If there is a joist or rim joist over the panel expect one only adding a second to make it a header should be acceptable. You might find a cluster of wires there.
the header might go at the bottom of the wall upstairs with the extra studs downstairs. Good place to use those beam cutoffs.
re-enforced wall= with footing below?
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:21 PM   #14
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


The structural braces I mean, tying beams on top of 4"x4" posts, have a lower channel that sits on top of the 4"x4" post and screw down into the top of the post, and an upper channel 180 degrees the other way for saddling the 2 2x8's I tied together for support beams under my porch. They are listed at Menards as structurally rated But in all honesty I was hoping to find something a little less ugly. These are really meant (I think) for under decks and in attics, unseen.

I will take a closer look at whats above the panel tonight. I am thinking I can get another joist in above to double it up and then beef up the support on either side of the panel so there are (2) 8x8s on either side supporting the beam above.

Yeah, the re-enforced wall sits about mid-way between the two footers, not directly over. But I figured with (6) if the (8) supports being directly over footers that (2) mid-way should not pose any real issue. It's actually not as far from the right side footer as the drawing depicts. It is only ~3' away, and ~3' away from the left-side footer as well. The floor is 4" concrete (at least it was in the downstairs bathroom where I cutout a channel for DVW pipe).
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:49 PM   #15
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Re: fixing ceiling sag and replacing wall with LVL beams same time


Post top brackets are for outside inside if the rest of the framing does no lock it in place they might get tied in place with flat straps.
I would not trust a 4" concrete slab to support a bearing wall never mind a point load.
You need an engineer to look this over. You have to much going on to be taking advice on line.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=simps...=1531176408344
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