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Old 12-20-2010, 12:15 PM   #31
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First... thank you for a long, detailed, and thorough post. Greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama45 View Post
- At the base of the wall, there doesn't appear to be any dropped brickledge. In my experience, w/o the brickledge, 9 times out of 10 any water inside the cavity will have the tenancy to leak inward. If I were to have constructed the chimney, I would have request a 4" deep by 8" high pocket formed into the top of the foundation wall at the base. Better yet, I would have requested a 10" wide wall through the chimney like the rest of the house, and the wall would have gone the full 9' high. The below grade would have been 10" wide, and everything above grade would have been 6" wide, leaving a 4" brick ledge. It's just the most efficient way to construct it.
I never quite thought of that. I'm not sure if the mason would have preferred that design or not. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of this project that I've noticed thus far is a lack of communication between subs. It just seems there's an attitude of "I do it my way and the other subs that come in will have to work with it that way."

Quote:
- I see no evidence of weeps or flashing at the base.
That's because there are none.

Quote:
- While the interior firebox looks alright, I can spot a few questionable things. Where's the wall ties, as it's obvious by looking at the firebrick floor that the FP surround will be full veneer. Is there at least 1" clearance to combustables at the sides & top??? Doesn't quite look like it. And why is the wall sheeted behind the FP? Maybe it's just the way we do it here, but it would have been easier on the mason, and likely made a better job all together, if the studs where left out between the massive shoulders until the chimney was done. (maybe they were now that I think of it?)
There are definitely wall ties, but you cannot see them in the pictures I've posted. Also, the build out of the fireplace (cement block) goes further in front of the firebox than it looks. We should have all of the necessary clearance in that area.

The wall was sheeted behind the fireplace because of a lack of communication and probably some poor sub-management, in terms of timing, on the part of the G.C. It definitely would have been easier if the fireplace/chimney was built before the builders finished, but that's just not how it was done. In fact, the mason wanted to have the header moved up higher to make it easier, but was forced to work with it at the height you see in the picture.

Quote:
- I can't tell from the pic, but the cap certainly should overhang ALL brick by at least 2", and look exactly like Michael's link. Corbelling the top two courses isn't enough to keep water dripping past the brick.
I have better pics of this that I took this weekend (had a warmer day where I could get the 40' ladder out and get on the roof) which I will post later.

I do dislike and question the overall design of the cap. As I mentioned earlier, I don't necessarily think it's 100% wrong, based upon the fact it's how it used to be done. I just know it's not the best way to do things. That's one of the things that I'm finding with most of the contractors I've talked with our dealt with. They do things that aren't necessarily wrong, but they're certainly not the best way to do it.

To describe the construction, the stack comes up, and then he bumps out about 2-3 courses of brick about a half inch (I thought it was 2", but it's not even close to that). On the top of the top row of brick, he starts the cement cap (the cap covers the entirety of the top row of brick, but does not overhang the brick).

Here is where I have some concerns beyond just the old design. He angles the cap up, but then comes to a pretty flat section around the flues. My understanding is that the entire top of the cap should ALL be angled, not just the edges. In essence the top kind of looks like this:
__
/===\

... though not as steep of an angle to the flat section.

There are two flues and, again, I dislike how the wood burning stove flue (smaller of the two) only has about a half inch (give or take) clearance from the cement cap, while the wood fireplace flue has probably at least 6 inches, maybe more.

Finally, and this was done by the G.C. and not the mason, the stainless steel cap is placed over the flue. This was done fine, except for one thing I noticed this weekend. When he put the cap on, he caulked the screw holes appropriately, so I was happy with that. However, for some reason which I can only divine as not understanding 'why' things are done (EDIT: I've since found out that the manufacturers instructions say to do it this way... makes no sense to me), he caulked the entire nailing flange of the stainless steel cap to the cement cap. Basically, he created a situation where all of the water would be sealed inside the cap. Luckily he caulk all of the flange holes, as there are several higher screw holes that do not have caulk and that will allow the water to weep out before it gets too high. I'm just baffled as to why you would even think to caulk that, as you want the water to run away, not stay there.

Quote:
- How a mason can properly detail and construct a chimney of that size without using concrete block (CMU) is beyond me. Obviously, one can't. The inner wall (back wall) should be made of a material that's far more rigid & strong than the veneer that's attaching to it. It should also be waterproof, which isn't easy to do with brick. Not to mention, why in the world would someone lay all those extra brick when block are stronger, faster, offer better water resistance, can be easily re-enforced if necessary, far cheaper, etc.... It makes no sense to me that the entire chimney was built with two wythe construction.
So, I have a little more info on the construction of the chimney. The entire inside wall of the chimney (along the sheathing of the house) is cement block all the way up to the rake of the house, where he splits to all brick. The exterior three walls of the chimney are solid brick, not a veener on cement block.

Also, I'll note that we're using zip board, not Tyvec, as our vapor barrier.

Quote:
- I think that the roof/chimney connection could certainly be the source as well. In that kind of height, water can move horizontally pretty far before far before it exits. I would run a hose right above that flashing for a period of time (when the weather allows of course) to see if you can replicate the leaking again.
I think they could be the source of other problems, but the fact that all of the brick within a foot of the house sheathing was bone dry says that it's just not the flashing. I agree that water can move horizontally before it exists, but it would attempt to move vertically first, as that's the path of least resistance. I cannot see a single scenario where the flashing is leaking THAT much and none of the brick within a foot of the house have a single drop on them, but all of the brick a foot out and beyond are drenched.

Quote:
- DO NOT seal the brick until you are 100% sure you have found the leak. I probably wouldn't seal the brick at all if it can be helped. Seeing you already have an avenue to talk to the Belden, I would certainly recommend calling them to first as well to verify that their brick can be sealed. Picking up spalled brick faces in spring just so you can mow the lawn is not a situation you want to be in.
I've had that conversation with the supplier, and he believes there should be no problem sealing the brick. However, he still can't understand why we are in a situation where we 'need' to seal the brick.

I did notice a few things upon further inspection that do concern me. When I stood up inside the basement portion of the chimney, where I have the best access to the interior masonry work, I noticed that a majority of the head joints were NOT completely filled. All of the bed joints were oozing mortar, but many of the head joints maybe had a 2" air space until you reached the mortar, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Since mortar is the section of the brick that's most likely to let water through to the interior, I have to believe the lack of an extra 2" of mortar is a potential culprit for this particular water intrusion (I'd say leak, but there's far too much water to be a 'leak').

Combine that with the fact that the chimney was only finished a week or so prior to the driving rainstorm (mortar not fully set up), and I think that's the most likely cause.

At this point, I'm near 100% certain that a good sealer will work. However, my bigger concern with the head joint issue revolves around the longevity of the chimney, and how that will have an effect. Any ideas?

Finally, one of the things I'm coming across is that there really appears to be very little recourse for myself, as a homeowner, as there are no standards for what is unequivocally right or wrong. What he did may not be the 'best' practice, but from everyone I'm talking to, it's not wrong to the point where I can force him to rectify the situation by tearing it down and doing it right, at his expense (EDIT: I have not confirmed about the head joints yet). So, I'm stuck in a situation where I have to spend money to seal a chimney every 3-5 years just to be safe.

Last edited by AgentW; 12-20-2010 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:02 PM   #32
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Chimney Leak


Great thread and great posts guys.
I just wanted to share my opinion..
Looking at the first attached picture it looks like water was penetrating in-between top of the foundation concrete wall and bricks, again looking at the picture you can also see that part of the mortar that sits above the foundation wall is dry and part of the mortar is wet. That small section explains your problem; if there was a leak at the roof-chimney flashing section in this early stage of construction you would be able to notice that on the interior side of the sheathing. Overall in my opinion chimney is constructed well, chimney cap could be better agreed. I don't think there is a problem with brick and I can still see some cinder blocks outside by the chimney, so yes they have used cinder blocks...
Your problem is that you have no flashing at the brick-foundation wall section...water runs down the chimney and easily penetrates thru generous amount of mortar that is in between brick and the foundation wall. Why?
Your chimney cap should overhang for at least 2" inches..Period
You need to have flashing where brick meets the foundation wall.
You can fix this problem with a drip edge and a piece of T-bar, have your GC bend a drip edge apron and attach with a piece of T-bar, caulk the T-bar and that should take care of the leak.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelToes View Post
Looking at the first attached picture it looks like water was penetrating in-between top of the foundation concrete wall and bricks, again looking at the picture you can also see that part of the mortar that sits above the foundation wall is dry and part of the mortar is wet.
I apologize that I have not posted better pictures. I can tell you that while it's possible there is water penetrating between the foundation wall and the brick, that is not where this issue originates. All of the brick above the foundation wall was soaked (except for the bricks along the sheathing of the house), so the wet mortar you see and the water on the foundation, was what ran down to that junction, not what came through.

Quote:
That small section explains your problem; if there was a leak at the roof-chimney flashing section in this early stage of construction you would be able to notice that on the interior side of the sheathing.
Agreed. I would also notice it along any of the cement block or brick that backs the sheathing. That portion of the interior of the chimney was dry. The origination of the water intrusion was most definitely not the flashing. Now, that's not to say that there couldn't be some issue with the flashing I'm not seeing that could potentially become an issue. I'm just 100% positive that whatever issue there could potentially be with the flashing (I believe there is none based upon my inspection) would not have caused this issue.

Quote:
Your problem is that you have no flashing at the brick-foundation wall section...
While it would be great to have that, I'm not sure how that flashing at the foundation would have solved the issues of the water coming in from above and seeping down into the firebox.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
Also, the build out of the fireplace (cement block) goes further in front of the firebox than it looks. We should have all of the necessary clearance in that area.

Let me just clarify here. You need 1" min. clearance from any & all block to any combustable/wood. This 1" gap is closed in by the exterior brick veneer. If you can't get your fingers between the interior block and the stud & sheathing, there's definately a problem. The same goes for the exterior of the chase, which you obviously can't see now because it's sheated.


I have better pics of this that I took this weekend (had a warmer day where I could get the 40' ladder out and get on the roof) which I will post later.

Anything additional you have would certainly help us help you.


I do dislike and question the overall design of the cap. As I mentioned earlier, I don't necessarily think it's 100% wrong, based upon the fact it's how it used to be done. I just know it's not the best way to do things. That's one of the things that I'm finding with most of the contractors I've talked with our dealt with. They do things that aren't necessarily wrong, but they're certainly not the best way to do it.

To describe the construction, the stack comes up, and then he bumps out about 2-3 courses of brick about a half inch (I thought it was 2", but it's not even close to that). On the top of the top row of brick, he starts the cement cap (the cap covers the entirety of the top row of brick, but does not overhang the brick).

Here is where I have some concerns beyond just the old design. He angles the cap up, but then comes to a pretty flat section around the flues. My understanding is that the entire top of the cap should ALL be angled, not just the edges. In essence the top kind of looks like this:
__
/===\

... though not as steep of an angle to the flat section.

There are two flues and, again, I dislike how the wood burning stove flue (smaller of the two) only has about a half inch (give or take) clearance from the cement cap, while the wood fireplace flue has probably at least 6 inches, maybe more.

It sounds like this may be a "hand formed mortar wash, lets hope not, as they don't last long. As for the taper on the vertical (maybe I' mis-understanding) of the cap, it's done oftentimes to gravity rest the ap form on the top course of brick so no anchorments are needed through the new brick.


So, I have a little more info on the construction of the chimney. The entire inside wall of the chimney (along the sheathing of the house) is cement block all the way up to the rake of the house, where he splits to all brick. The exterior three walls of the chimney are solid brick, not a veener on cement block.

So, the three exposed walls of the fireplace are one wythe (about 3.5") wide? If that's the case, you certainly need to do some digging through your code, as there's no way I can see that as being acceptable.

I've had that conversation with the supplier, and he believes there should be no problem sealing the brick. However, he still can't understand why we are in a situation where we 'need' to seal the brick.

I agree with him, there's no legitaite reason one should have to seal a new brick veneer of any kind, there's far better ways to control water management that have a lifespan equal or greater than that of the brick.


Combine that with the fact that the chimney was only finished a week or so prior to the driving rainstorm (mortar not fully set up), and I think that's the most likely cause.

If those brick really are "suckers"/sponges, that mortar is as water resistnat as it will ever be at this point IO.


At this point, I'm near 100% certain that a good sealer will work. However, my bigger concern with the head joint issue revolves around the longevity of the chimney, and how that will have an effect. Any ideas?

Not nearly as long as masonry is intended to perform sucessfully.

Finally, one of the things I'm coming across is that there really appears to be very little recourse for myself, as a homeowner, as there are no standards for what is unequivocally right or wrong. What he did may not be the 'best' practice, but from everyone I'm talking to, it's not wrong to the point where I can force him to rectify the situation by tearing it down and doing it right, at his expense (EDIT: I have not confirmed about the head joints yet). So, I'm stuck in a situation where I have to spend money to seal a chimney every 3-5 years just to be safe.
You really need to get familiar with a current copy of your jurisdictions building codes. I tried to look real quick online, but I only got far enough to find that it appears RI adopted the IRC code. What specific changes, if any, have been adopted by your area I don't know. But, I have a hard tie believing in this day & age that any non-arid state in the US doesn't require wall flashing & weeps at the base of the wall. Our code in WI is very specific with many of these items, and has been for 20+ years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
I apologize that I have not posted better pictures. I can tell you that while it's possible there is water penetrating between the foundation wall and the brick, that is not where this issue originates. All of the brick above the foundation wall was soaked (except for the bricks along the sheathing of the house), so the wet mortar you see and the water on the foundation, was what ran down to that junction, not what came through.



Agreed. I would also notice it along any of the cement block or brick that backs the sheathing. That portion of the interior of the chimney was dry. The origination of the water intrusion was most definitely not the flashing. Now, that's not to say that there couldn't be some issue with the flashing I'm not seeing that could potentially become an issue. I'm just 100% positive that whatever issue there could potentially be with the flashing (I believe there is none based upon my inspection) would not have caused this issue.



While it would be great to have that, I'm not sure how that flashing at the foundation would have solved the issues of the water coming in from above and seeping down into the firebox.
Now that I read this post, I' beginnig to think you indeed only have a single wythe wall on the exterior three walls. If that is acceptable by code, or anyone as acceptable building practice, I certainly feel for you. Brick veneer, especially at those heights, isn't intend to stand alone on it's very own. If it was, we wouldn't be using wall-ties for attachment to the home........................
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama45 View Post


Now that I read this post, I' beginnig to think you indeed only have a single wythe wall on the exterior three walls. If that is acceptable by code, or anyone as acceptable building practice, I certainly feel for you. Brick veneer, especially at those heights, isn't intend to stand alone on it's very own. If it was, we wouldn't be using wall-ties for attachment to the home........................
I think the same Joe. When I look at the photos it does look like the wall sits in the centre of the 8 ins concrete.
Also the fact that half filled head joints can be seen further up suggests that this is the back of a 4 inch wall, as a 9 inch wall would usually have the backs filled and maybe the centre empty.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:22 AM   #36
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Hey Joe... thanks again.

Quote:
So, the three exposed walls of the fireplace are one
wythe (about 3.5") wide? If that's the case, you certainly need to do
some digging through your code, as there's no way I can see that as
being acceptable.
Here is what I found in RI building codes (though, this is from 2006 and could have changed)


2113.10 Wall thickness. Masonry chinmey walls shall be con-
structed of concrete, solid masonry units or hollow masonry
units grouted solid with not less than 4 inches (102 mm) nomi-
nal thickness.

2113.10.1 Masonry veneer chimneys. Where masonry is
used as veneer for a framed chimney, through flashing and
weep holes shall be provided as required by Chapter 14.


From the sounds of this, the mason was not building against code. He was using solid brick, 4 inches in width, ant not as a veneer. This tells me you only need through flashing and weep holes for a veneer, not a solid brick design.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:24 AM   #37
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Quote:
Now that I read this post, I' beginnig to think you indeed only have a single wythe wall on the exterior three walls. If that is acceptable by code, or anyone as acceptable building practice, I certainly feel for you. Brick veneer, especially at those heights, isn't intend to stand alone on it's very own. If it was, we wouldn't be using wall-ties for attachment to the home........................
Maybe I'm confused, or not explaining myself accurately, but I thought I made it apparently from the beginning that a solid brick wall was built, not a veneer wall.

Is a brick used for a brick veneer different from a standard solid brick?
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:26 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuart45 View Post
I think the same Joe. When I look at the photos it does look like the wall sits in the centre of the 8 ins concrete.
Also the fact that half filled head joints can be seen further up suggests that this is the back of a 4 inch wall, as a 9 inch wall would usually have the backs filled and maybe the centre empty.
Yes, the brick does sit in the center of the concrete foundation wall. Well, not fully in the center. The exterior pas probably an inch or so of space, while the interior has maybe 3 inches.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
Maybe I'm confused, or not explaining myself accurately, but I thought I made it apparently from the beginning that a solid brick wall was built, not a veneer wall.

Is a brick used for a brick veneer different from a standard solid brick?
Usually the same bricks are used.
Have a look at the slenderness ratios of brick walls.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...PY&sig=8Xtlm_L
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:04 PM   #40
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Hi AgentW

Any chance that you can post some sketch's with dimensions showing on plan how the chimney stack is constructed, say one at about basement level, one about the throat to the fireplace and one halfway up the stack. If you wanted to finish off, for good measure one of the top of the stack. No need for isometric's!

They say that one picture is worth a thousand words and sometimes this is very apt! Although I am asking for 3-4 sketches, its not likely that you will get three-four thousand words in exchange! But I may exchange your sketches for a few rare pearls of wisdom from what is a very rare commodity!

Regards
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:42 PM   #41
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Also, can you upload the new pictures of the chimney cap?
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:49 PM   #42
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Hi AgentW

On a technical note: a 4" wall is a 1/2 brick solid wall and a 9" (one brick length depth) wall is a 1 brick solid wall. A 1 brick wall is how most solid walls are built in the older houses in the UK and most do not have any problems, some may have a problem due to the type of brick that was used and to get over the problem by applying a 2 coat render to the brickwork.

However, a house would never be built with only a 4" 1/2 brick wall as it would never withstand the weather conditions that you have described, hence why you are having so much of a problem with rainwater penetration, which is worsened by the fact that you have no lead trays etc by which to channel the rainwater back to the external face of the building.

The only time you get a 1/2 brick wall in the UK is with the front skin of a cavity wall construction, the cavity acting as a line of defence to the penetrating rainwater, regretfully a cavity is something that you do not appear to have.

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Old 12-23-2010, 02:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentW View Post
Hey Joe... thanks again.



Here is what I found in RI building codes (though, this is from 2006 and could have changed)


2113.10 Wall thickness. Masonry chinmey walls shall be con-
structed of concrete, solid masonry units or hollow masonry
units grouted solid with not less than 4 inches (102 mm) nomi-
nal thickness.

2113.10.1 Masonry veneer chimneys. Where masonry is
used as veneer for a framed chimney, through flashing and
weep holes shall be provided as required by Chapter 14.


From the sounds of this, the mason was not building against code. He was using solid brick, 4 inches in width, ant not as a veneer. This tells me you only need through flashing and weep holes for a veneer, not a solid brick design.

The problem comes in here:

A) He used brick that were designed & manufactured to be used as a veneer product only as the framing/structure of the chimney walls. Give the folks at Belden another call and ask them if this is an intended use for these specific brick.

B) Even though I'm not real familiar with the IRC code, I'm positive that it includes verbage stating that the chimney CAN NOT allow water to leak through. Call your building inspector & voice your concerns. I'm really having a hard time grasping that this sort of masonry construction is acceptable by any code in this country. Even if it were, it certainly wouldn't have the blessing of the brick manufacturer.

Good luck with the situation.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:20 PM   #44
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I can't offer a detailed technical explanation, but I had a similar problem so I'll speak up. I have a very similar chimney configuration (I even have almost the same windows on each side.) Our house had a new roof installed just before we bought it. It was changed from wood shake to asphalt/fiberglass shingles, so plywood sheathing was installed for the first time when it was re-roofed.

After 3-4 years, water started dripping... then pouring... into firebox, and on through basement ceiling underneath. Your pictures could have been my house. I sealed every crack in the cap, checked all the flashing, etc. No progress.

I hired a reputable roof repair guy who also advertised "leaking chimney repair," he found that the sheathing was not properly supported against the chimney... it was allowed to "hang over" the nearest rafter to abut the chimney. This allowed movement which caused failure around the apparently good flashing. He properly supported the sheathing, re-flashed, and re-shingled, and after 3 years we have had no more leaks.

Guy
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