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Old 06-17-2016, 03:11 PM   #1
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beam replacement and sistering


Hi all,

Been reading the forum for a while, first thread post. I have some work ahead on a new to me property and due to the size of the project I wouldn't mind if anyone could offer any improvements, corrections, suggestions, etc..

Prior to the purchase it was clear that the first and second floors had some rather large pitch/sag and general structural issues. I had an SE come in and evaluate. The general assessment is the main beam (2x10-x3) needs to be replaced with a stronger steel I and around half the longer 14" joists (2x8s, wee bit small for that span) need to be sistered/reinforced with a few select joists requiring LVLs. The main beam sags (2" at the west column) and the north end 14' joists sag (as much as 2.75"). House is a two story colonial built in 1948 .

I have linked the repair drawing for reference which should save some explaining regarding the required work. There is a two page report in addition, but the drawing does well for a quick summary.



Trying not to make this a book, I'll start with the beam replacement. I will follow with more there after. Any feedback is welcome. As noted prior, I appreciate the additional eyes to ensure this project goes a smooth as it can. Hope it will provide a resource to any others that need to go down this path as well. I've pulled a lot of good information from various web resources, a lot of knowledgeable posters out there, great resources for all.



Jacking: Using Tiger brand adjustable columns, each will be set on doubled up 2x10-2' floor supports for floor load distribution. I drew a jacking timber and post location drawing for my planning/reference. The layout is copied from the repair drawing, now having access to the house there are a few joist location inaccuracies, but well close enough for illustration purposes.

The 8 timbers next to the main beam (6x6's, both 6' & 7' long) will be set up first for beam and column/footing replacement. The 3 6x6s centered on the 14' joists will be set up for the sistering after the beam replacement. About 5' between jacks to maneuver for beam work.

Jacking an 1/8" a day (both up and down) is the plan.


Footings/Support Columns: As soon as the beam is unloaded I will demo the beam, 2 columns and their footings. I plan on purchasing an electric chainsaw to chop out manageable sections of the beam (securing the sections prior to felling them). Rotary hammer to score the footing and sledge to break it up (may use saw with diamond blade, H2O and GFI for clean lines).

Every where I read generally notes 2'x2'x1' footing size, usually suggesting 1/2" rerod in either a # or + pattern; which all sound good to me.

I did run the numbers best I could for the worst case load bearing soil condition, snow roof load, structure type etc. using ICC residential code 2015 and came up with a minimum footing size of 22"x22"x6" (sec R403.1), but that's a min, I like the oversize no fuss goto of 2'x2'x1' and might even over build to 26" to 30" for the x/y.

Columns will be 3" sch40 pipe as specified and may increased to 3.5". Will weld bottom plates (1/2" plate), fill with concrete, weld top plate with the lateral movement prevention bolt holes, paint the finished column with primer.

Now here is a question regarding pouring the new footings. I only have read this being done by a few, and I would like to go the same route for ease. When the new I beam is installed and level, can't I just bolt the sized column to the steel I beam (plumb) and pour the footing (monolithically as I read the individual refer). Any concerns in doing this?

I just stopped by the build inspector to get my permit and he said he would rather see the 12" thick footing poured, the beam positioned on top the poured footing, and then a 2" column locking pad poured flush with the floor (he didn't have a reason for why the monolithic would be a bad thing, it seemed not knowing pushed him to double down on suggesting the tried and true suggested method). No big deal either way to me.

I wonder if there are any negatives to the monolithic pour, such as the curing concrete pulling on the column etc.. I don't see the loaded beam bearing down on the new footing/column and coming out of out of level (sinking) because of it (can shim the beam then if so)?


More on the masonry beam pockets and installing a level beam next...

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:21 PM   #2
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Until I figure out how to edit the already posted posts, I'll have to add the correction to the dead ICC residential code 2015 link above HERE
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:35 PM   #3
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


You noted that you had an SE come in and evaluate. Is an SE a registered professional structural engineer? You have a lot of detailed, important and interesting questions, and you appear to be undertaking a substantial project, for which I applaud you. If I were in your shoes, and you had a report from a registered PE, I would refer structural questions to them, including footing design, connections, temporary support design, and possibly jacking procedure.
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Old 06-17-2016, 05:01 PM   #4
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Was that the SE's drawing, the first one you posted? Lots of detail left out, which is odd. Hold his feet to the fire and have him provide you these answers. And I'm kind of shocked the building department accepted that sketch.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:06 PM   #5
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Hi Daniel,

Yes the SE is a PE and his stamp is on the report. I've already ask a few questions and have a few on deck. One of the questions I asked was what size timber should be use to brace against the joists for jacking them (SE replied with 6x6s supported 6' OC).

I will ask additional questions as needed. What I would like to generate is a dialog which might bring additional question to the forefront. I can then propose the questions to the SE if needed.

What's your thoughts about pouring a column footing with the steel column already installed on the beam, plumb, centered within the footing and at the proper depth? Any known issues with doing so?


Aggie67,
Yes that was the SE's drawing, there is more detail in the drawing that coincides with the report, the report is more of a visual reference for what is discussed in the report. I have a short list of questions I will be asking. He noted that if there were any question just ask, which I will do.

No issues at the building dept. when receiving the permit (inspector also has both the drawing and the report). The inspector had the same 2'x2'x1' footing size for what he expected and agreed that if larger all the better (didn't call out that the footing size needs to be specified on the drawing).

Two inspections will be done, one for the footings prior to pour, the other when work is finished (I may have him come in to verify 3"+ beam bearing on the masonry pocket and steel bearing plate prior to filling it with concrete for lateral stability.)
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:39 PM   #6
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


I wouldn't pour footings around or under hanging support columns. That's just making things harder than they need to be, and leaving zero room for adjustment. Which is critical being that there's a fully constructed house atop this new beam.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:23 PM   #7
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


I will not answer any of your questions but have to ask why in the hell are you asking questions on an internet forum questioning an SE resolution to your problems.
I don't have an issue with people trying to gain knowledge so they can ask intelligent questions from any SE but to come on an internet forum and think you will get different or better advice than what the SE you hired will give you is ludicrous.
He may not tell you what you want to here but he will tell the way it needs to be done in your area.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:38 PM   #8
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Do you plan to install the centre beam as one piece?
What ideas do you have for handling a 500 pound steel beam in the restricted space the jacking supports create? How do intend to move it once lifted to position it to get sufficient bearing at each end?
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:08 AM   #9
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Aggie67, Appreciate the reply on the footing question, thank you. I would like to throw this at you to see if where I might be faulting.

Wouldn't all adjustment be baked in with a monolithic pour? Pour the footing with beam level, concrete cures and beam is still level (or should be, no play/force on the beam as a result of the concrete curing?), drop the jacks and lower the joists on the beam.

Only way I can see the beam loosing level is if the load on the beam from the joists were to induce downward movement to break level , but you would be in the same situation had you poured the footing, set the column, and pour the 2" or so binder to lock the column.

If there is no fault with the monolithic pour, it would actually get me out of having to cut the pipe precisely or shim the column prior pouring the binding 2" or so to lock the column. (could just get an adjustable permanent column I guess).

Just a little hang up that I think about and can't find a reason why the monolithic would not make a little less work. Granted, easy enough to pour the footing, set the column and pour the binder to lock the column.



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Originally Posted by Aggie67 View Post
I wouldn't pour footings around or under hanging support columns. That's just making things harder than they need to be, and leaving zero room for adjustment. Which is critical being that there's a fully constructed house atop this new beam.
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:32 AM   #10
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Mako1, I already noted what my intent was in the above posts. If you noted I only had one question and the moment about the monolithic pour, more of a curiosity than anything. I'm just explaining the path I'm taking and seeing if anyone wants to shoot holes in any of it, offer improvements and or can getting me thinking of a better solution to what my planned action has me doing.

Not looking for different or better advice than what my SE may provide. Just airing out the process of what I'm about to embark on, ensuring I've done my due diligence prior to work, trying to mitigate making more work for myself by having to do something over.

If someone would need to search the archives in the future for the same task I'm embarking on I hope they can gain something from coming across this thread.

Curious, why won't you answer any of my questions?




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Originally Posted by mako1 View Post
I will not answer any of your questions but have to ask why in the hell are you asking questions on an internet forum questioning an SE resolution to your problems.
I don't have an issue with people trying to gain knowledge so they can ask intelligent questions from any SE but to come on an internet forum and think you will get different or better advice than what the SE you hired will give you is ludicrous.
He may not tell you what you want to here but he will tell the way it needs to be done in your area.
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:05 AM   #11
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Hey Jlhaslip, good question, I didn't touch on any of that. I had asked the SE if I could break up the 27'+ steal beam into three pieces to make it more manageable as you noted. He said no problem to do so. The three sections will be roughly: 8' (144lbs), 9.5' (114lbs), 11' (198lbs). The two beam joints will bear directly above the support columns. Will be ordering steel Monday after triple checking the required lengths this weekend.

So I figured to make a beam 'ladder cradle', or what ever it would be called, in order to raise the beams by myself. Similar to a 20ton press you might find at Harbor Frieght or elsewhere, to elevate the press platform you lift up on the platform beam, pull the metal rod from the side support and move it to the next hole up, set the beam down and do the same to the opposite side to make the platform level.

Figure I would take 4 2x4s and go to town with a wood hole bit and cut a series of holes in all four then make the "H" on both ends of the beam or timber securing one end of the 2x4s to a joist and have the other ends bearing on the floor. Using a steel rod or pipe to pass through the two 2x4s to make the "H". It may take a bit of time, and I might have to have the lady of the house move to dowel if all hands are on deck with a beam, but may work in a pinch if no one is around to help heave. That or I'll find it a waist of time and get on the phone and ask for help.


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Originally Posted by jlhaslip View Post
Do you plan to install the centre beam as one piece?
What ideas do you have for handling a 500 pound steel beam in the restricted space the jacking supports create? How do intend to move it once lifted to position it to get sufficient bearing at each end?
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Old 06-18-2016, 08:59 AM   #12
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
If there is no fault with the monolithic pour, it would actually get me out of having to cut the pipe precisely or shim the column prior pouring the binding 2" or so to lock the column. (could just get an adjustable permanent column I guess).

Just a little hang up that I think about and can't find a reason why the monolithic would not make a little less work. Granted, easy enough to pour the footing, set the column and pour the binder to lock the column.
I'm a PE, I've performed this same exact task you're setting out to do on everything from houses to chemical plants. You're installing an 11 foot beam in a basement with a ceiling maybe 8 feet high at the most. I've lifted and installed 35 foot long W26's in ceilings 30 feet high, right up against the underside of the roof deck. I feel that I know what I'm talking about. You asked my advice and I gave it. Don't take the short cut. Leave yourself room to adjust.
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Old 06-18-2016, 09:18 AM   #13
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


I second Aggie's point about leaving yourself room to adjust the column. Less chance of major issues.

As to the change from a 27 foot long continuous beam to three shorter beams supported on the columns, you should make sure your SE performed the required calculations. A 27 foot beam which is continuous over several supports has a different moment curve than three shorter beams which are supported on columns (a simple beam condition). The SE needs to verify that the maximum moment developed in the beams is within allowable limits, and changing from continuous to simple beams changes the maximum moment. Changing from continuous to simple beams also requires a change in the connection detail between the column and the beam, presumably your SE revised the detail appropriately.

The SE is generally responsible for preparing drawings showing the final condition, the contractor (that's you in this case) is responsible for means, methods, techniques and sequence of construction. In practice, the SE rarely provides details about how to lift the beam, maneuver the beam, temporarily support the structure during the operation, or install the pieces. If you need help with any of those details, the SE may be willing to assist, typically at an extra cost. In my experience, the installation process can be quite challenging, so be careful, think it through completely, and make sure you have adequate support personnel when you do the job.
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:27 AM   #14
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Aggie67, Appreciate the reply and advice you are giving. I will pour the slab, set the column and then pour the column binder after everything is set as you are suggesting.

Was just curious (and still am), and trying to pick anyone's brain as to why the one shot pour wouldn't remove the need to make any adjustments without any downsides, as long as your beam is level, in proper position, column plumb and centered in the footing hole prior to the pour. You always have the option to adjust/shim under the column's plate to beam junction if need be, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie67 View Post
I'm a PE, I've performed this same exact task you're setting out to do on everything from houses to chemical plants. You're installing an 11 foot beam in a basement with a ceiling maybe 8 feet high at the most. I've lifted and installed 35 foot long W26's in ceilings 30 feet high, right up against the underside of the roof deck. I feel that I know what I'm talking about. You asked my advice and I gave it. Don't take the short cut. Leave yourself room to adjust.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:11 PM   #15
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Re: beam replacement and sistering


Thank you for the advice Dan, I appreciate bring this up and providing the explanation of how/why (picked up a lot from reading your various other posts when searching the archives). I will ask these questions to the SE prior to ordering steel. This is the type of questions I was hoping to generate in order to prevent possible do-overs down the road, T/Y. Noted on the caution at the end again, can't be stressed enough, T/Y.

Noted on the comment confirming Aggie's suggestion, will be taking yall's advice and pour footings as suggested.

Could I be a pain and press for your opinion as to what major issues you could confront? In my simple mind I see a small risk between A. setting the column on the cured footing, adjusting the column for plumb and beam for level, and then pouring the final column binder. VS. B. securing the column to a level beam, adjusting the column for plumb and pouring the footing in one shot.

In both cases you have the option to triple check that everything is proper before making the situation permanent, and both allow shimming the beam for level after the column is set it it's footing.

Please take no offense to the pestering question, the question still remains in my thick skull.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
I second Aggie's point about leaving yourself room to adjust the column. Less chance of major issues.

As to the change from a 27 foot long continuous beam to three shorter beams supported on the columns, you should make sure your SE performed the required calculations. A 27 foot beam which is continuous over several supports has a different moment curve than three shorter beams which are supported on columns (a simple beam condition). The SE needs to verify that the maximum moment developed in the beams is within allowable limits, and changing from continuous to simple beams changes the maximum moment. Changing from continuous to simple beams also requires a change in the connection detail between the column and the beam, presumably your SE revised the detail appropriately.

The SE is generally responsible for preparing drawings showing the final condition, the contractor (that's you in this case) is responsible for means, methods, techniques and sequence of construction. In practice, the SE rarely provides details about how to lift the beam, maneuver the beam, temporarily support the structure during the operation, or install the pieces. If you need help with any of those details, the SE may be willing to assist, typically at an extra cost. In my experience, the installation process can be quite challenging, so be careful, think it through completely, and make sure you have adequate support personnel when you do the job.
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