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Old 01-02-2010, 07:15 AM   #16
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revisiting this thread because yesterday I addd silicone caulk on the inside seat edges, quit a bit of air flow and had ice built up - had to chip and melt that - then dry it before could apply. less air flow - but the seat is SUPER cold.
i need to do something about this asap, but it's -10 degrees here.
a few side projects and the holidays kind of made me forget about it.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:05 AM   #17
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What's the length of that thing? about 6 feet long?

Up here,we would have definitely put in a frame to support the window prior to installing it. Just to support, what, about 400lbs? would need to tie into the joists and extend them out. You'd get about 10" of insulation space under there and solve your problem.

Ice? you had to chip out??? For crying out loud, you're not in Florida so whoever installed that window nneds a lesson in geography before he does any more windows. I mean what is holding that window frame onto the wall studs? a few 3" screws????

Pull back the siding, cut away the rim joist, sister new joists onto the old ones with carriage bolts, measure out a frame the same height, put in a vapour retarder or just fill the void with spray-foam or fibreglass, cover and then reside. Two guys a half-day job.

Can't believe it...ice...!
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:21 AM   #18
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cut the rim joist?these newer bays are usually supported by cables
i dont think support is the problem,and the op was already told how to go about adding more insulation
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:43 AM   #19
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Adding insulation? air-sealing? What's next, new IGU's and a forced hot-air fan to reduce the ice build-up?

Sounds like a lot of messing around for one bay window and more like a DIY job gone wrong. Only improper installation can account for so many problems that should have been dealt with at the start. OK, you may think that it may be supported well enough with your cables etc but that still doesn't account for the ice and cold temperatures inside.

Maybe cables in Georgia - but in Iowa, I'd have a rethink. Sure like to know what supplier, what brand of window and what the installation manual says, if available.

Only a guess here - but is this a DIY from HD or Lowes?
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:28 AM   #20
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What we do for that type of window is to get a piece of what ever thickness foam board that you want to use and cut it to fit the outside bottom of the window. We attach it with roofing nails. Since we do window capping we have access to a metal brake. We bend a piece of aluminum to cover the foam.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarlisle View Post
Adding insulation? air-sealing? What's next, new IGU's and a forced hot-air fan to reduce the ice build-up?

Sounds like a lot of messing around for one bay window and more like a DIY job gone wrong. Only improper installation can account for so many problems that should have been dealt with at the start. OK, you may think that it may be supported well enough with your cables etc but that still doesn't account for the ice and cold temperatures inside.

Maybe cables in Georgia - but in Iowa, I'd have a rethink. Sure like to know what supplier, what brand of window and what the installation manual says, if available.

Only a guess here - but is this a DIY from HD or Lowes?

what on earth are you talking about?they are not my cables the window comes with them that are attached to the header or roof rafters
Andersen uses the same system ,from the pic i didn't notice any racking issues

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Old 01-02-2010, 12:19 PM   #22
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OK, guys I don't want to protract this too much.

I'm still waiting for a few answers but I'm just pointing out that the issues the OP tells us about (cold, ice etc) may not stem from a bad product as much as from a bad installation.

Up here, we have the same windows but some have to be supported (as I outlined) from below - if only to increase the insulation and air movement underneath it. If proeprly installed, none of these issues would exist in the first place.

Now OK, up here we go big-time on insulation and air movement - we have to - but Iowa isn't all that different. I am not talking about the window falling off - I am talking about insulation. After all that's what the OP is reporting. If the cables work then fine - but cables don't solve the cold air coming in from below...

But he has a cold zone and warm air condensing on it; so two things are faulty: the insulation level and the air movement. One needs fibreglass or XPS or spray-foam, the other needs a vapour retarder. Someone suggested insulation screwed in underneath and then facing that with flashing, that's fine but you haven't solved air exfiltration yet.

I am just saying that a proper installer would have addressed all these issues when he installed the window.
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarlisle View Post
OK, guys I don't want to protract this too much.

I'm still waiting for a few answers but I'm just pointing out that the issues the OP tells us about (cold, ice etc) may not stem from a bad product as much as from a bad installation.

Up here, we have the same windows but some have to be supported (as I outlined) from below - if only to increase the insulation and air movement underneath it. If proeprly installed, none of these issues would exist in the first place.

Now OK, up here we go big-time on insulation and air movement - we have to - but Iowa isn't all that different. I am not talking about the window falling off - I am talking about insulation. After all that's what the OP is reporting. If the cables work then fine - but cables don't solve the cold air coming in from below...

But he has a cold zone and warm air condensing on it; so two things are faulty: the insulation level and the air movement. One needs fibreglass or XPS or spray-foam, the other needs a vapour retarder. Someone suggested insulation screwed in underneath and then facing that with flashing, that's fine but you haven't solved air exfiltration yet.

I am just saying that a proper installer would have addressed all these issues when he installed the window.

What is exfiltration? I couldnt find a meaning for that word that pertains to windows.
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:42 PM   #24
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i understand what your saying thanks for clarifing,your absolutly right proper install is key
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:45 PM   #25
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"Exfiltration" is the movement of air from the inside of the house outwards; it's what happens in cold climate zones in winter if the vapour retarder is insufficient. Known as a leaky window install...

It's basically why we have vapour retarders in the first place: to keep the warm moist air we have in the house from filtering out the rim joists or somewhere or around window frames.

It is related to insulation level if you will, but in colder climates it is closely related because some estimate the loss in energy from a house due to exfiltration to be around 30% of your total $$energy bill. So up here - and Iowa is in a cold zone too - we insulate to slow down the transfer of heat to colder surfaces - PLUS we seal all joints using spray-foam or plastic to seal up the 'leaks'.

Now the OP said he has ice...sure sign that something probably metal, is really cold and warm moist air from the inside is either condensing on it or cold air is coming in. Either way, there should no ice except on his driveway and definitely not in the bay window.

You can put 2" of XPS underneath the bay and screw (better still stick) that on...that'll make the inside piece of plastic warmer. But if you have a leak around the window, the warm air will still get out. Warm air always moves to cold, and wet-to-dry, so you have to use a vapour retarder of some kind to stop that...exfiltration of air.

Hope this helps.
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:56 PM   #26
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but if you read the post all these suggestions have been givin

appreciate the building science lesson tho
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:56 PM   #27
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Here's an infrared picture of a house showing what exfiltration is concerning windows. Now I swiped this from an inspectors' site, so I owe the photographer credit for this - but I am borrowing it for demonstration's sake and hope it illustrates a question we had here and that everyone can learn from it.

The white areas are where warm air is escaping from the house:
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bay window insulation - not answered previous-ir_0201.jpg  
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:54 PM   #28
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Hello all - I had to read and catch up - thanks for all the replies

I do not know how the window is attached, I assume cables because it's a fairly heavy unit and I've even kneeled inside it, probably won't be doing that again now that I think about it.
Also, I don't think it was installed by a DIYer, it matches the other windows and sliding patio door installed in 2004 (give or take) would have to look at our home buyer stuff - we bought the house in 2005.

I attached inside pics. The seat is about 2 in thick and it is sealed to the drywall, already thought about filling in that space.
You can see the caulk I did yesterday, it dried clear last night, but woke up this morning and it's white again - not quite sure on that one.
sorry for the poor quality of pics, the sun is shining too bright for my flash to make a difference.

I'm thinking this will be an outside job as far as adding insulation, I don't really want to drive screws/nails through that plastic on the under side outside - in case the attempt fails I don't want holes in it.
As far as aluminum over a piece of insulation - any other product to cover it?

Thanks again, this forum is very helpful to me
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bay window insulation - not answered previous-window1.jpg   bay window insulation - not answered previous-window2.jpg  
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:11 PM   #29
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Good input....In your experience then GregC, at what point (weight limit?) do you think you need to extend the floor joists outward to supoort bays from underneath?
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:58 PM   #30
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doesn't anyone read the previous post
jk good advise
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