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-   -   would adding an outlet destroy grandfathering? (https://www.diychatroom.com/f18/would-adding-outlet-destroy-grandfathering-315617/)

Toller 09-16-2015 03:13 PM

would adding an outlet destroy grandfathering?
 
I have a sewage pump plugged into a single outlet. Back in 2005 that met code. I am adding an alarm, but have nowhere to plug it in. The building inspector is okay with my changing the outlet to a duplex and plugging both in there, but I am concerned that someone buying the house won't like it. I can't change to a GFCI outlet because the manufacturer tells me the pump will trip on a GFCI.

I was planning on extending another circuit 20' to add a GFCI outlet for the alarm, but then had another idea. I could put a box/outlet in right above the existing outlet and run wires from one to the other. Would that destroy the grandfathering of the existing single outlet?

(bringing in a second circuit would avoid having the alarm and pump on the same circuit, but it does have a battery backup...)

rjniles 09-16-2015 03:24 PM

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2Bm5P4L2rL.jpg

Toller 09-16-2015 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjniles (Post 2481001)

That is essentially what I am doing now, but I don't see it as a permanent solution.

I "think" a grandfathered single outlet can only have one device plugged into it, but maybe I am wrong.

poiihy 09-16-2015 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjniles (Post 2481001)

Those things are garbage. You shouldn't use them for permanent use with a heavy load. They will melt and start a fire. Better to replace the outlet with a duplex.

123pugsy 09-16-2015 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toller (Post 2480961)
I have a sewage pump plugged into a single outlet. Back in 2005 that met code. I am adding an alarm, but have nowhere to plug it in. The building inspector is okay with my changing the outlet to a duplex and plugging both in there, but I am concerned that someone buying the house won't like it. I can't change to a GFCI outlet because the manufacturer tells me the pump will trip on a GFCI.

I was planning on extending another circuit 20' to add a GFCI outlet for the alarm, but then had another idea. I could put a box/outlet in right above the existing outlet and run wires from one to the other. Would that destroy the grandfathering of the existing single outlet?

(bringing in a second circuit would avoid having the alarm and pump on the same circuit, but it does have a battery backup...)


Sounds like you worry too much.
If the inspector is OK with it, there's nothing wrong with it.
If the alarm doesn't overload the circuit, no harm.

I'm sure someone buying your house would never know if there was originally a single or a duplex in that box. Or do you have a wiring diagram posted in your house somewhere?

Jim Port 09-16-2015 04:20 PM

Didn't you ask the same question about a month ago?

nap 09-16-2015 04:28 PM

altering the circuit does remove the grandfathering. Basically, any time you alter a circuit, it is a "new" circuit for purposes of code. Whether the inspector in your area is going to call you out on it or not is within their discretion.


oh, I see, he already said it was fine to do it. Do you think he is going to suddenly reverse his opinion later? As to possible purchasers in the future; they will always have something they don't like. I would not let the concern about this one issue grate on you so much.

as to the alarm causing a circuit breaker to trip; just what kind of alarm are you talking about? Does it have a huge bell or Klaxon that is going to draw a lot of current?

Jim Port 09-16-2015 04:36 PM

The one I remember , the pump was junk, and the manufacturer said it would trip a gfi.

poiihy 09-16-2015 04:36 PM

What is "grandfathering"?

nap 09-16-2015 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poiihy (Post 2481265)
What is "grandfathering"?

It's when I take my children's children and do what grandfathers do.:biggrin2:

It is where a condition that does not meet current code standards is allowed to remain in place if it met the code standards at the time of its installation. One of the most commonly addressed would be a 3 wire circuit to a dryer. Current code requires the use of 4 conductors (two hots, a neutral, and a ground) but older codes allowed only 3 where the ground and the neutral were combined into one conductor.

If you do not alter the dryer circuit, and have a 3 wire circuit, you can use it with only the 3 wires. if you alter the circuit (extend it, move it, whatever), you must upgrade it to a 4 wire circuit.

Toller 09-16-2015 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 2481225)
altering the circuit does remove the grandfathering. Basically, any time you alter a circuit, it is a "new" circuit for purposes of code. Whether the inspector in your area is going to call you out on it or not is within their discretion.


oh, I see, he already said it was fine to do it. Do you think he is going to suddenly reverse his opinion later? As to possible purchasers in the future; they will always have something they don't like. I would not let the concern about this one issue grate on you so much.

as to the alarm causing a circuit breaker to trip; just what kind of alarm are you talking about? Does it have a huge bell or Klaxon that is going to draw a lot of current?

I don't care about the building inspector; he will never see it.
Having just been through selling a house, I am real concerned about what the buy's inspector will say. A duplex outlet has never been code compliant, and he might be bright enough to know that; and the buyer might insist on who knows what.

The alarm draws 2a when it is going off, but of course it only does that if the pump is drawing nothing; so there is no risk of straining the circuit.

True story about buying a house and having it inspected...
The house we recent bought is kinda unique and suits us perfectly. First day it was on the market we offered 5% over asking (which never happens in this area) but lost it to someone who offered 10%.
Inspection showed 4.5 radon. The owner offered $1,500 off to cover remediation, but the buyer want the remediation done first with a satisfactory level. Seller refused, so we got the house for asking price (less $1,500 for remediation.
That trivial thing cost the seller a lot of money.

InPhase277 09-16-2015 07:12 PM

A non-GFCI duplex outlet was code compliant for two pieces of equipment in a fixed location, such as two deep freezers.

Like we discussed in the other thread, if a pump trips the GFCI, it is garbage and should be tossed out anyway.

nap 09-16-2015 07:53 PM

I guess I am not understanding the question:

Quote:

Would that destroy the grandfathering of the existing single outlet?
what is now not code compliant that was code compliant previously? In other words; what is currently grandfathered in that you are concerned about losing its grandfathered exemption?

Toller 09-16-2015 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InPhase277 (Post 2481809)
A non-GFCI duplex outlet was code compliant for two pieces of equipment in a fixed location, such as two deep freezers.

Like we discussed in the other thread, if a pump trips the GFCI, it is garbage and should be tossed out anyway.

I don't even know if it does trip a GFCI. All I know is that Liberty Pump, which I "think" is a reputable company, recommends against using it on a GFCI.

As long as it works normally I am surely not going to replace it! I am amazed anyone would recommend that.

Just for fun, I might try putting a GFCI in; now that I have an alarm.:smile:

InPhase277 09-16-2015 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toller (Post 2482113)
As long as it works normally I am surely not going to replace it! I am amazed anyone would recommend that.

You're amazed that someone would suggest replacing a pump that leaks enough current to trip a GFCI?


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