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What type of electric do I have in mu house?

8K views 44 replies 14 participants last post by  JohnJ0906 
#1 ·
I'm turning my basement in to my work shop, I have a bunch of single phase 120/240 volt equipment and I just picked up a lathe that is 3 phase 220. I figured that I will use a phase converter for all the 3 phase equipment (1 for now and one more piece down the road for a total of 2). My question is I think that I might already have 3 phase in the house.

If you open up the cabinet below the meter you see where the wires come into the house (total of 4) then they go up through the meter then through a conduit to the main breaker panel and one small breaker box for the AC.

Now I put a volt meter on the wires in the cabinet where the wires come into the hose. The wires go as follows "Red, Black, Black" and a white wire at the bottom of the cabinet which I assume is the ground. When it test across the red and white I get 210 volts, when I test the other two black wires across the white I get 120 volts. When I test across both the blacks I get 240 volts and when I test across either of the blacks to the red I get 240 volts.

The words "caution red leg first phase on block" and a 3,2,1, underneath the wires in the cabinet.

So what do you guys think, do I have 1 phase or 3 phase coming into the house.

P.S. Here's a link to a pic of the cabinet.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2082689870030078541pNfGlh
 
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#6 · (Edited)
In my experience they would never serve (bring to the main panel)... a residence with high leg delta. But looks like I learn something new every day.

Is this an old business or warehouse converted possibly to a residence or residences?


Would it be possible to post us a picture of the main breaker panel ?

The leg they have painted red that goes out the back bottom of your panel is the identified "high leg". It is 208v to neutral and cannot be used for phase to neutral loads. This is a tricky deal at the main panel so watch your p's and q's when breakering your 120 volt stuff. Make sure that high leg is identified at the breaker panel....if not do it yourself. Use common trip three phase breakers for your 3 phase stuff. Don't try to get resourceful with single pole breakers.

The white wire is your neutral it carries the phase to neutral current in this configuration.... so caution.

Stubbie
 
#7 · (Edited)
This is a house that was built in the 1950's, It did have a ingroud pool and still has a 3 ton AC unit. I will post more pics when I get a chance later.

Well I am going to have a licensed electrician do most of the electrical work for me. I am going to run a few outlets my self both 120/240. I will probably run the 3 phase outlet me self because I have done 3 phase before at a old job. But installing a new pan, updated breaker box and running the new wires in from the outside I will leave to the pro. I just feel better now that I know what type of service I have for when I start making phone calls.

My big question is since I have a 3 phase and I have a lathe that is 220v 3 phase can I run it on the delta 3 phase? I always though that the 3 phase was 120 degrees apart and had equal voltage on each leg? Wouldn't the 208/120/120 be unbalanced to run directly to the lathe with out balancing the voltage?
 
#8 · (Edited)


This is a grounded delta... B phase is the high leg (wild leg). The voltages you posted 208/120/120 Are B phase to neutral and A and C phase to neutral in that order. Edit: In your case A phase is the high leg (credit to Duncan B for pointing this out to me). If you look at the diagram the delta is grounded at the midpoint between a and c phases. So the midpoint is 0 volts ... 120 volts from A node and 120 volts from C node. So A phase to neutral is 120 volts and C phase to neutral is 120 volts but B phase to neutral is sqrt 3 x 120 = 208 volts. Also you can see all phases measured to each other are 240 volts apart.

The only way you get the 208,120 and 120 is to carry the neutral to the load.

For 3 phase tools at 240 volts you do not carry the neutral you only run the three phases to the load.

I strongly suggest you let a qualified electrician fool with this configuration it is very tricky and easy to get confused to someone seeing high leg delta for the first time.

Stubbie
 
#9 ·
as what other been saying with delta service any change on the service entrance system.

It is the best leave this with the electrician whom deal with delta system because for safety reason there are few thing they have to know how to do this properly and do it in codewise .

again i will remind you please heed what they been warning you with the connections it can get ya by suprise if not carefull especally with wildleg side.

I am multilevel electrician i work just about everything from resdentail to all the way to the industrail level so i can see what the sisuation going on

i know there are some electrician whom work on the resdential area only may not really famuiar with this but as long they read this they can get the idea what going on.

let get back with the wildleg situation the wildleg is not very common used system at all and easyly misunderstood item on delta system and i did see bad side effect with any 120 volt devices hook up with wildleg it do pretty good damage there [ been there and see the aftermath with some pepole whom were not too bright what they done it ]

i will empized it again let the electrician do all the work and get all propely hook up in safe manner


please noted that on older delta system it is common to used to marked in RED for wild leg but current code is marked in ORANGE so that is the extra step you have to watch out on this one

Merci , Marc
 
#14 ·
This picture and this description, and you do not think this is three-phase?????
Amazing. :laughing:

Now I put a volt meter on the wires in the cabinet where the wires come into the hose. The wires go as follows "Red, Black, Black" and a white wire at the bottom of the cabinet which I assume is the ground. When it test across the red and white I get 210 volts, when I test the other two black wires across the white I get 120 volts. When I test across both the blacks I get 240 volts and when I test across either of the blacks to the red I get 240 volts.
 
#15 ·
speedy you are not a professional, and not even close to an electrician. Even a monkey can count wires.

News Flash - A 3-phase centered tapped configuration has (4) current carrying conductors.

Like I said to andy, stubbie, and the others who insist this is 3 phase, you people are not qualified to give anybody advice, you're irresponsible, and finally not even smart enough to acknowledge the advice of somebody who was educated in the trade
 
#19 ·
speedy you are not a professional, and not even close to an electrician. Even a monkey can count wires.
The fact that you have to insult me speaks VOLUMES about your character.

I am now completely convinced you are nothing but an internet troll. You ONLY purpose is to cause strife on the boards.
You were fun but are now getting tiring sir. :mad:
 
#17 · (Edited)
News Flash - A 3-phase centered tapped configuration has (4) current carrying conductors.
Yep and they are all there. There are two dead give aways that this is high leg delta....can you see them? And I'm not talking about the writing on the enclosure though that does seem odd doesn't it? We asked you to explain how you make this three wire single phase and you avoid it. Forget that he has one leg that is 210 volts to neutral you don't need that to tell what he has there. Remember I asked you first to explain that cabinet as single phase. Surely you can do that?

Like I said to andy, stubbie, and the others who insist this is 3 phase, you people are not qualified to give anybody advice, you're irresponsible, and finally not even smart enough to acknowledge the advice of somebody who was educated in the trade
So far I have never seen where you have the word wrong in your vocabulary. I do not appreciate your accusations. I have never been to fond of people who want to throw their qualifications out there to get attention or a pat on the back. You have dug yourself a hole and are desperate to get out of it. One way is to show us this is single phase, do that and I'll admit I'm wrong. If you can't do that then I will assume your qualifications and 25 years of experience are phoney.

Ok... I'll help you out tell me which one of these do you think he has there?


http://www.bmillerengineering.com/elecsys.htm

Stubbie
 
#20 · (Edited)
It goes over to the neutral lug in the bottom right it is coming in under the service entrance wires...that is the neutral ....the bonding in the cabinet proves it! If it was a ground why would it be on a insulated stand off? The white wire with the split bolt is the neutral can you see that?

You have 3 hot wires and a neutral.... the neutral is not carried to the meter in that type cabinet. You have three ungrounded line wires to the meter and three load wires leaving...its obvious.

It is also a delta meter see the little triangle on the meter face? What do you suppose that means.

And please don't BS me with any more of your 25 years electrician baloney.

Stubbie
 
#22 ·
I did some searching (thanks to our old friend Google) & came up with the following;

1] a link that gives details for the GE V-66-A KWH meter.

Here is the link;

http://www.geindustrial.com/products/reference/BB Index.htm

Please note this line in the data;

"
3-Phase, 4-wire Delta
V-66
15A
None​
None​
Bottom Connected
50
"

Click on the '50' on it will clearly show a wiring diagram of the KWH meter in question.

I hope this ends the debate :whistling2:
 
#25 · (Edited)
My pleasure :thumbup:. It's ashame that the PDF can't be attached into a post (maybe I don't know how to do that yet?) Even if I compress it, it is still 70kb.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not taking sides here....I'm just interested in finding out all about these strange multiphase setups you fellas have :)
 
#26 ·
Well I'm not going to be much help, your computer skills are much better than mine.... but I have connections!!! :wink: Maybe I can see if they know how to do it.

Your smart to not take sides it is very crowed in that room.

Stubbie
 
#28 · (Edited)
Sorry just had to bring this up again

speedy you are not a professional, and not even close to an electrician. Even a monkey can count wires.
Maybe buffaloney is an orangutan.... they can't count anything except bananas and fruit. Kinda cute in a ugly way. If Speedy isn't a professional at least he is a monkey.:)



PETA ALERT....Spotted in New York State...No it isn't Big Foot!!

News Flash - A 3-phase centered tapped configuration has (4) current carrying conductors.
Orangutans also have poor eyesight. After all that neutral was hard to see someone painted it white to camouflage it.

Like I said to andy, stubbie, and the others who insist this is 3 phase, you people are not qualified to give anybody advice, you're irresponsible, and finally not even smart enough to acknowledge the advice of somebody who was educated in the trade
On a serious note this may go down as the troll statement of all time.

Well just a little humor and sarcasm on a slow night, see ya guys

Stubbie
 
#29 ·
I have occasionally visited this site, but haven't felt the need to register or reply to a thread until now.
I've got 37 years in the commercial/industrial electrical trade
I'm a licensed electrical contractor
I'm an ICC certified electrical inspector, and an IAEI member
Also the first non-union electrician to be certified as a journeyman in the State of CA.
(These things are posted just so I might have a little bit of credibility, not as bragging)

uffBalonymann is just plain wrong, and loudly proclaims his ignorance.

This is a 4 wire center tapped Delta system. The grounded (neutral) conductor does not run through the test blocks on a 120/240 1Ø system. What he is referring to as a "mechanical ground" (an incorrect term, BTW) is the neutral.
The power company might supply the high-leg conductor on any phase that they desire. (SCEdison supplies it on "C"). It should, however be routed to the "B" phase at the first point beyond the service entrance, such as a panelboard.

Speedy Petey, Marc (frenchelectrician), and the others are correct.

Beware that information from uffBalonymann may get you killed.

Thanks
 
#30 ·
I worked 25 years in a plant with high leg delta but I had forgotten that the utility did in fact bring the orange leg in on phase C. I wasn't aware that they brought it to single family residences. I appreciate you supplying that and other information to the site. Though this thread got out of hand because of the disrespect of one member tripping my trigger I'm glad that you made your reply. I'm not always right, there are things I am not familiar with and avoid any WAG. The other thing is on the DIY sites is you better be responsible in your replies and posters should use caution with any advice. They should do a quick search of the forum about the person giving advice to them so they can have the piece of mind he is responsible. But it gives me piece of mind to know other professionals monitor this site and will respond if advice given here is unsafe. DIY sites in my opinion don't exist so we can all try to be "know it alls" we come here to do our best to make sure a homeowner has a decent shot at doing his electrical project safely cause they are generally going to do it anyway. When these people post here it tells me they have respect for electricity and the common sense to ask how to do the project so they don't burn their house down.

And I'll tell you something....it ain't a lot of fun worrying about whether these homeowners are going to get there hand in the wrong place.

Stubbie
 
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