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Old 07-05-2009, 01:41 AM   #16
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Your welcome...good night


BTW...By the way

FWIW....For what its worth


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Old 07-05-2009, 11:34 AM   #17
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I'm not an electrician, but my common sense tells me that all equipment (pump, lighting, etc) housings, and all metal parts around the pool should be bonded to the SE ground. Also, if there is a sub-panel for the pool, its neutral should NOT be bonded to the ground in the sub-panel, but the ground of the sub-panel should be bonded to the SE ground. Neutral from the sub-panel must be bonded to neutral in the SE panel.
So, you have a continuous ground conductor from the SE to the sub-panel, to the equipment housings, and metal parts around the pool.

Instead of shutting off all circuit breakers, shut off just the MAIN breaker at the SE. If there is a problem inside the SE panel, it is possible for current to "leak" around the individual breakers. You want to be sure everything is dead, then check voltages as you have before, and whether or not your friend still feels a slight shock when getting out of the pool.

I agree with the advice on getting an inspector.
If POCO is at fault, make them fix the problem.

If all fails to find/correct the problem, check for stray RF in the immediate area. Your friend doesn't live next to a radio station transmitter, does he?

FW
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logi98 View Post
There is a power panel at the pump house with the grounding rod. This power panel is seperate from the house panel which also has a grounding rod. What is BTW? Also, he is in the process of "rent-to-own" for this house.
Might want to visit with the owner about his problem and see if he will get involved with a solution to the tingle voltage. Also remember it isn't so much the voltage that tingles you what your feeling is current flow.

The ground rod at the pump house is required for the electrical system protection and equipment protection from lightning and utility power surges.
The pool pump does not need to be bonded to that ground rod it is already bonded to the grounded conductor and earth at the main panel of the house via the equipment ground ran with the pump branch circuit conductors and pump house feeder.

These tingle voltage problems are very difficult to solve in many cases and should be handed over to qualified people who deal with this stuff all the time. There are a few things you and your friend can check and you may get lucky and solve the issue. But if you find yourselves chasing your tail get someone in there, with the owners permission, that has experience with this kind of problem around a swimming pool. It may be a bonding problem or it may be there is an external or on premise issue causing the unwanted voltage and current.

BTW...the lug on the pool pump is to bond it to the equipotential grid around the pool . This is done with a #8 copper wire ran to all required metal around the pool. Concrete walkways should either have rebar in them that you can bond to or a metal grid the concrete was poured over to make your bond to the common grid. I would suspect there is no ability to bond the walkway around the pool or there is no equipotential grid installed and no metal bonded. Voltages like 3 vac should be eliminated, as far as tingle voltage felt by people, by proper bonding to a equipotential grid.

If there is no grid then it will be pretty much impossible to get rid of the tingle voltage if it proves to be with in tolerence of what is expected for your area. Finding the source of the current or voltage is about the only way a solution will surface.
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:54 AM   #19
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You might try loading down the 3 vac with a 7-1/2w or larger incand. bulb and see how much it drops, so the bulb is in parallel with the voltmeter. This drop in voltage along with the "cold" resistance of the bulb will give some idea of the (Thevenin) resistance of the source supplying this voltage.

With ~8 mA of AC current flowing, this guy's skin/body resistance must be 400 Ω.
http://www.easternvoltageresearch.co...ets/safety.pdf
assuming his body saw the same voltage that the meter did.

What kind of soil resistivity do you get in Florida?

soil 30k to 50M ohm-meter
tap water 1M to 100M ohm-meter
concrete 200 ohm-meter
human body 5 ohm-meter
copper 20 nanoohm-meter

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Old 07-05-2009, 12:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
I'm not an electrician, but my common sense tells me that all equipment (pump, lighting, etc) housings, and all metal parts around the pool should be bonded to the SE ground. Also, if there is a sub-panel for the pool, its neutral should NOT be bonded to the ground in the sub-panel, but the ground of the sub-panel should be bonded to the SE ground. Neutral from the sub-panel must be bonded to neutral in the SE panel.
So, you have a continuous ground conductor from the SE to the sub-panel, to the equipment housings, and metal parts around the pool.
The bonding of metal around the pool was never meant to be part of the equipment ground of the electrical systems feeders and branch circuits... which is for fault currents and tripping out breakers not stray voltages that appear as earth gradients in contact with the pool and surrounding area. The bonding of all metal around a pool is to get all metal and walkways that come in contact with a stray voltage gradient to come to the same potential as the stray voltage gradient and prevent a shock to people if this occurs. It is not intended to be part of the effective ground fault path back to the SE.There is always a voltage /current gradient in the earth by the very nature of the way utilities ground (earth) the electrical distribution system. Bonding prevents this product of the utilities from shocking you around the pool when walking on concrete or touching two conductive parts around a pool. These gradients that are allowed and others that are not supposed to be present is why we join metal around the pool to the equipotential grid. Joining them to the egc going back to the SE provides no additional safety to stray voltage.

Note that there is a non-intentional connection at the pump (if it isn't double insultated) and heater by the vary nature of the egc and bonding wire terminated to the metal frame of the motor. If the pump is double insulated there is no bonding lug and it is not required to be connected to the bonding grid around the pool and as a result will not be incidently connected to the egc of the pump branch circuit.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:08 PM   #21
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Thanks Stubbie, for clearing that up for me. I have never done any work around a pool, but I understand what you are talking about.

The new code for pool areas is a good thing. Back when I was a kid, you would invariably read each summer about at least one or two electrocutions in or around pools.
There were no such things as GFCI, and I don't think that all the bonding requirements existed.

FW
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