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Old 10-31-2017, 08:38 PM   #31
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffmattero76 View Post
I ask because I own 3 properties with 2 wire (no ground) wiring, and in all three, the builder or a previous owner ran a seperate ground wire from each receptacle to a Junction box in the attic, and then to the cold water pipe in the "trouble door" behind the bathtub. Is it legal to have 3 prong non-GFI receptacles using this grounding strategy?
Depends entirely on when it was done. It was not only allowed, it was the only approved way to make the additional equipment grounding connection prior to 1993:

250-50. Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Exception for (a) and (b) above: For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, the grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to a water pipe which is bonded in accordance with Section 250-80(a).


1993 changed the location to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system and removed the water pipe connection.
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Old 10-31-2017, 08:46 PM   #32
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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Originally Posted by Fishbulb28 View Post
Depends entirely on when it was done. It was not only allowed, it was the only approved way to make the additional equipment grounding connection prior to 1993:

250-50. Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Exception for (a) and (b) above: For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, the grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to a water pipe which is bonded in accordance with Section 250-80(a).


1993 changed the location to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system and removed the water pipe connection.
Nicely answered!
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:25 AM   #33
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


Please be aware that a water pipe must be bonded to the service according to code before it is part of the grounding electrode system
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:12 AM   #34
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


Can I also ground by connecting a bare copper wire to my old 1970s TV antenna?
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:07 AM   #35
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


First, I want to thank you guys for the great information. I really appreciate it!

Now for the good part...

The GFCI outlet is in, labeled, and ready to rock. Look how cute I am!!!

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Old 11-01-2017, 06:28 PM   #36
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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Originally Posted by DrHicks View Post
DrHicks - First off we appreciate your "thanks". However since you provided us with this link above which I am assuming you followed in installing the GFCI and your concern with no ground and that since your initial post (creating this thread) and until you posted a picture of your final results as a picture of a GFCI which really does not tell us anything about how you dealt with the issue of "ungrounded" circuit and how you were able to "resolve" it; that your post was actually telling us how you will do it instead of how you should do it (asking this forum). Would you please be so kind as to inform us as to how you solved this issue please. Many gave suggestions and provided their personal/professional and free advice as to what you should do as guidance.

Oh, and by the way if you decided to go with the link (as your guide) you provided us with (at the start), I would "hold caution" as to believing all that was said/written in the FamilyHandyMan context (please see picture attached).

The second sentence in that link already brought "caution" as to how accurate the directions are. Here is specifically what I mean. The second sentence states -

Quote:
GFCI

A GFCI, which instantly switches off if there’s a short circuit, may be used to replace a two-wire electrical outlet, but only if it’s clearly labeled as ungrounded.


Already providing Mis-Information.

A GFCI measures current coming in on the hot conductor and compares the current going back out on the neutral conductor, if there is an imbalance of more than 4 to 6 milliamps the GFCI will trip indicating a "ground fault" - this is totally different than a short circuit.
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Ungrounded GFCI-gfcishort.jpg  

Last edited by afjes2015; 11-01-2017 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 11:05 PM   #37
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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Originally Posted by afjes2015 View Post
DrHicks - First off we appreciate your "thanks". However since you provided us with this link above which I am assuming you followed in installing the GFCI and your concern with no ground and that since your initial post (creating this thread) and until you posted a picture of your final results as a picture of a GFCI which really does not tell us anything about how you dealt with the issue of "ungrounded" circuit and how you were able to "resolve" it.
I did exactly as you said in Post #3 on this thread. I installed a GFCI outlet, using only the two wires available, then included the sticker that says "ungrounded outlet."
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Last edited by DrHicks; 11-01-2017 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:56 AM   #38
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


Thanks for the update DrHicks this way if someone else in the future has the same issue and does a search and finds this thread helpful they will also see not only what the issue was but what the resolution was in order to correct it. That is why it is important to report back what was done to correct it.

Thanks. This I am sure will help others in the future with the same problem.

Glad you were able to take care of it.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:43 PM   #39
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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Originally Posted by trentonmakes View Post
You likely have metal boxes, you should run a ground from receptacle to metal box...
It will still show ungrounded on a tester but is much better alternative to using water pipe

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If this is the same trenton as on ET , I should ban you

I nominate this for worst advice ever
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:07 PM   #40
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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If this is the same trenton as on ET , I should ban you

I nominate this for worst advice ever
Ya, same guy -)

I heard the exact same advice given a few years ago by a Home Depot
"associate". I couldn't stand it and had to tell this other customer the
real facts based on the CEC.

Oh, and I second the nomination. -)
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:27 PM   #41
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Re: Ungrounded GFCI


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Ya, same guy -)

I heard the exact same advice given a few years ago by a Home Depot
"associate". I couldn't stand it and had to tell this other customer the
real facts based on the CEC.

Oh, and I second the nomination. -)
I see

Maybe you and I will get along here
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