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Old 11-27-2009, 12:11 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fpeikin View Post
I have seen many panels that use a 2-pole breaker with black and white wires feeding an electric heater.
Yes, and that is fine if it is in a cable. As JBfan said, in conduit white is NOT allowed to be used as a hot, even if re-identified.


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I would use red tape around the white wire to signify it is hot on both ends.
Tape is not an acceptable way of re-identifying a wire this small. I must be a permanent method like paint or a permanent marker. A Sharpie works perfect.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:25 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Tape is not an acceptable way of re-identifying a wire this small. I must be a permanent method like paint or a permanent marker. A Sharpie works perfect.
Learn something new everyday
I've always used tape to remark 12g wire for my switched hots (switch loop)
Is it just for white wires to breakers....or all uses ?



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Old 11-27-2009, 11:56 PM   #18
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Dave.,

All cables under #6 AWG { 16mm˛} are not allowed to remarked unless it is a switch loop or 240v circuit and myself I always use perament marker like sharpie normally I use red or bleu depending on the set up on single phase supply but triphase you have to go extra step to be carefull with it.

That part as Jbfan mention very clear if this in the conduit { pipe } no way you can not do that at all I know I did ran into few " not very bright person " whom they remarked everything in the conduit { ya will hear my French cussing going on ATM }

Merci,
Marc
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:19 AM   #19
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Right - but I have always use black tape to remark the white as a hot switched loop
I've never used a Sharpie to permanently remark

I did mean 240v going to breakers, I don't have any of those



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Old 11-29-2009, 11:22 AM   #20
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Two points

1. Unless i miss my guess what we are dealing with in this case is travelers. Lots of us guys use purple color for our travelers.

2. I'd like to clear up some Urban Myth Electrical Code issues.

Black tape is acceptable to reidentify switch legs. tho I like sharpie.

It is also acceptalbe to reidentify (phase tape) Current carrying (hot) conductors smaller than #6 the confusion comes from the fact that you are not allowed to "phase" grounds or nutreals under #6, but there is no such restriction on hots. check your code books guys.

Based on 2008 codes buy the way. I also should mention in case it makes a difference I'm in the states.

And so it goes, R
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Saturday Cowboy View Post
Two points

1. Unless i miss my guess what we are dealing with in this case is travelers. Lots of us guys use purple color for our travelers.
Yeah I am aware if you have in conduit then yeah purple is one of common colours for me I will pick any colours as long it is not netural or ground conductor colours { the White , Grey , and green ( green and yellow strip is in this one as well )}

But if in cable that diffrent.

Merci,Marc
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Saturday Cowboy View Post

Black tape is acceptable to reidentify switch legs. tho I like sharpie.
200.7(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Tape is NOT "permanent".



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It is also acceptalbe to reidentify (phase tape) Current carrying (hot) conductors smaller than #6 the confusion comes from the fact that you are not allowed to "phase" grounds or nutreals under #6, but there is no such restriction on hots. check your code books guys.
a) A neutral is a current carrying conductor. It is a grounded CCC. A hot is an ungrounded CCC.

b) Sure, you can re-identify a hot conductor to another hot color, if you really need to do so.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:47 PM   #23
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Hey but I use super glue tape



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Old 11-30-2009, 01:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
b) Sure, you can re-identify a hot conductor to another hot color, if you really need to do so.

In a previous post it was implyed that this was not acceptable. I am here just to point out that in a conduit, I could pull a #12 green, white, and two #12 blacks, and then phase one black red at both ends. This was said to be a violations which it is not.



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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Tape is NOT "permanent".
Let me play devils advcate for a moment. Who says tape isn't permanent? I say its as permanent as a sharpie


And so it goes, R

Last edited by Saturday Cowboy; 11-30-2009 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Saturday Cowboy View Post
In a previous post it was implyed that this was not acceptable. I am here just to point out that in a conduit, I could pull a #12 green, white, and two #12 blacks, and then phase one black red at both ends. This was said to be a violations which it is not.
Where was this stated?



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Let me play devils advcate for a moment. Who says tape isn't permanent? I say its as permanent as a sharpie
I say it isn't, and I know a lot of inspectors and other electricians who would agree.

Then again I know a lot who tape #12 and #14 as well. That does NOT make it right though.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
200.7(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Tape is NOT "permanent".
One could argue that tape is permanent based on the definition.

Main Entry: 1per·ma·nent
Pronunciation: \-nənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French parmanant, from Latin permanent-, permanens, present participle of permanēre to endure, from per- throughout + manēre to remain — more at per-, mansion
Date: 15th century
: continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable
synonyms see lasting
per·ma·nent·ly adverb
per·ma·nent·ness noun


Tape unless tampered with will not have a fundamental or marked change any more than what sharpie would.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:54 AM   #27
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The sticky part of tape dries out after time, tape will fall off eventually
So one person accesses the box & tape falls off....not replaced
Next homeowner there isn't any tape

I've yet to see a sharpie permanent marking fall off the wire or anything else

My last house none of the wires were remarked in the switch boxes
And in some cases the neutral was switched (interupted)



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Old 11-30-2009, 05:14 PM   #28
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One could argue that tape is permanent based on the definition.

.............

Tape unless tampered with will not have a fundamental or marked change any more than what sharpie would.
You need to get out in the field more. Your opinion on this would change.

You'd realize how untrue your last sentence is.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
You need to get out in the field more. Your opinion on this would change.

You'd realize how untrue your last sentence is.
100% agree with Speedy Petey
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
The sticky part of tape dries out after time, tape will fall off eventually
So one person accesses the box & tape falls off....not replaced
Next homeowner there isn't any tape

I've yet to see a sharpie permanent marking fall off the wire or anything else

My last house none of the wires were remarked in the switch boxes
And in some cases the neutral was switched (interupted)
As far as using tape (to mark the polarity of wires) the word is unanimous that it's ineffective and against Code. Because the tape comes unglued in both, hot and damp conditions like a boiler room and in freezing temps. like outdoors. But the second problem that you mentioned about the switched Neutral is more common in older wiring. I encountered that in a few places on service calls. One possible cause for that is that when a short circuit (or ground fault) occurs the Electrician or homeowner takes a shortcut and instead of tracing the problem they reverse the polarity. Of course, that's illegal and dangerous but it happens. Point being that I never rely on the switch alone. I always test the circuit if it's live. If I have to work on live circuits that's fine, too. But you have to know whether it's live or not.
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