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Old 06-09-2010, 07:53 PM   #1
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Supply Cable to Panel


Can anyone tell me if they see any concerns with the way the supply sweeps down into the side of the panel? I'm not sure if it should somehow be better protected (in conduit?) I'm going to be replacing the panel soon and I want to do it right so that I don't annoy my inspector. Also when I ground to the water line below the panel, do I need to run the ground wire in conduit or can i just leave it bare? The water line is about 4 feet below and about 2 feet to the right where it enters the house.
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Last edited by Old College Try; 06-19-2010 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Updated Picture
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:41 PM   #2
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cable looks terrible and is not "to code". It needs to be secured and not simply free hanging like that. I prefer to bring a cable in the top generally. That way you can keep it tucked up high and when over the panel, 90º down and your in.


water pipe bond does not have to be in conduit.

you do have at least one ground rod (and generally people just put in 2 to avoid having to do a ground resistance test), right?
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:22 AM   #3
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Thanks for the response. I never previously considered running a new cable, but now I'm thinking about it. I wasn't sure if I could make 90 degree bends with cable of this size. So, when the utility disconnects power to my house can I run a new cable from the meter (which is mounted on the other side of the wall where the cable disappears) to my panel? If I do that and come in through the top, I'll end up with about 3 90 degree bends to get there. Will this be doable?
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:08 AM   #4
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what is wrong with the panel, besides the unsecured supply, that you are planning a putting in a new box?

That wire doesn't look overly heavy so that you could put in a larger rated box (but its hard to tell from the picture).

you can put in an intermediate box (possibly with a fused and a switch), at the entrace point, then run conduit to the panel.

you can get a 10' length of grey PVC, an elbow (or 3), maybe a junction, and a couple of threaded ends for not a whole lot of cash.

I'm not sure of the codes involved, but is there a need to run it to the top? you can stick in plenty of elbows. the bigger the conduit, the easier it will be to pull. you can also pull it through one section of pipe at a time, then glue it as you go.

Last edited by forresth; 06-10-2010 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
I'm not sure of the codes involved, but is there a need to run it to the top?
You can bring it in anywhere as long as all germane rules are followed.

Quote:
you can stick in plenty of elbows
.maximum total of 360º though.

Quote:
you can also pull it through one section of pipe at a time, then glue it as you go
not supposed to do that though. The glue on the pipe also melts a lot of the different types of insulation.


.
Quote:
I wasn't sure if I could make 90 degree bends with cable of this size.
yes you can but there is a minimum radius. Can't remember offhand what it is though. Maybe one of the other guys does. Seems like it is either 5 or 7 times the diameter of the cable but don't hold me to that.



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So, when the utility disconnects power to my house can I run a new cable from the meter (which is mounted on the other side of the wall where the cable disappears) to my panel?
that is the only time a non-pro should be doing it

Quote:
If I do that and come in through the top, I'll end up with about 3 90 degree bends to get there. Will this be doable?
sounds fine. Just be sure to get permits if required.

The one thing to be aware of is the distance from the meter to the disconnect. The code lists is as as near as practicable to the entrance of the cable into the building. Many inspectors have a different view of what is acceptable and they pretty much run the show on that point.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by forresth View Post
what is wrong with the panel, besides the unsecured supply, that you are planning a putting in a new box?
It's an old pushmatic panel that has several double tapped breakers. I've had to replace 3 so far and they run about $50 each. I could have paid for a new panel with those 3 breakers.

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Originally Posted by forresth View Post
That wire doesn't look overly heavy so that you could put in a larger rated box (but its hard to tell from the picture).
It's 4/0 AL. The panel is currently 200A, so I'm just looking to put in a panel with more circuits to allow for expansion.

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Originally Posted by forresth View Post
I'm not sure of the codes involved, but is there a need to run it to the top? you can stick in plenty of elbows. the bigger the conduit, the easier it will be to pull. you can also pull it through one section of pipe at a time, then glue it as you go.
I like the idea of running the existing cable through conduit. I assume that size of cable is pretty expensive, and I'd rather stay away from the meter. I image I'll have to basically glue as much of the conduit together as possible and feed it over the cable.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:29 PM   #7
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you do have at least one ground rod (and generally people just put in 2 to avoid having to do a ground resistance test), right?
There's an existing rod, but I'm not sure of the condition, type or anything so I picked up a couple and pushed them in the other day in preparation. I was able to push them in the first 2 feet, pile drive them by hand the next 6, and drove them home with a 4 lb'er. Went easier than I expective after having read about a lot of problems. I plan on abandoning the rod that was existing and just using the 2 new rods.

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Originally Posted by nap View Post
The one thing to be aware of is the distance from the meter to the disconnect. The code lists is as as near as practicable to the entrance of the cable into the building. Many inspectors have a different view of what is acceptable and they pretty much run the show on that point.
I've thought about that and my only arguement is that I'd rather keep it away from the water supply line that runs under where the cable enters the house.

Last edited by Old College Try; 06-11-2010 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:18 PM   #8
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Conduit Code Violation?


So I've been doing some additional research and am I understanding correctly that it's against code to place this type of cable in conduit? I read something about double insulating causing the cable to be de-reated. Any comments?
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:13 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Old College Try View Post
So I've been doing some additional research and am I understanding correctly that it's against code to place this type of cable in conduit? I read something about double insulating causing the cable to be de-reated. Any comments?
The first thing we the electricians will clear up this misunderstood normally SE cable is not a best idea to run in the conduit unless you are useing for protection only otherwise it our SOP to run 2 inch or larger conduit with 120mm² {4/0 AWG } and I have a feeling you have alum SE cable there.

next step that you will have to check with your building or electrical inspector to see what the max inside distance you can able bring in unfused service entrance conductors { a quick info most place will say 8 feet or less and they will stated " short as possible " } The outside part is not a issue there is no limit for distance on the outside but once it get inside it complety diffrent set of game to deal with it as I mention above this paragraph.

I know you have old pushmatic load centre there and with new load centre btw it will be little wider than old pushmatic load centre [ The modern load centre typically are 14 1/4 to 14 1/2 inch wide compared to your old pushmatic they are typically 10 or 12 inch wide.

and that is good call to run new ground rods in and run the new EGC from ground rods to the new load centre { you will need 25mm² (#4 AWG )}

and make sure you bond to the copper water pipes as well.

Merci,Marc
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Old 06-12-2010, 05:45 AM   #10
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....and that is good call to run new ground rods in and run the new EGC from ground rods to the new load centre { you will need 25mm² (#4 AWG )}...
Ummm ... Marc, you are not required to use anything larger than a #6 copper wire for ground rods, regardless of the size of the service.

As for the OP wanting to use conduit for his service conductors, we do that all the time, except we use XHHW or THHN individual conductors.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:30 AM   #11
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and that is good call to run new ground rods in and run the new EGC from ground rods to the new load centre { you will need 25mm² (#4 AWG )}
I'll probably go with #6 to the ground rods as per [250.53(E)]. I believe I read in the code that if you have #4 or larger you need to have the cable protected outside of the house, where with #6 you don't need to have it protected as long as it's fastened to the wall. [250.64(B)]. I picked up some clamps and #4 solid copper for bonding things like that water filter (notice the existing bond? Not much larger than #18). I'll probably use a continuous run from the panel down to the water line and then across the water meter since it's right next to the panel.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:43 AM   #12
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As for the OP wanting to use conduit for his service conductors, we do that all the time, except we use XHHW or THHN individual conductors.
I'll probably replace the 4/0al se cable with individual 2/0 or 3/0 copper conductors in conduit. I'll have to figure out whether it's better to make the horizontal run inside or out. I also need to figure out if I have enough room to make the 90 directly into the house and another down into the panel. I have to imagine this is a fairly typical setup?? Do pro's usually just pull the meter when running new conductor to the panel, or do they have the utility disconnect power to the meter?
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:52 AM   #13
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MIght want to put a grounding jumper across that blue water filter while you are at it.
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:15 AM   #14
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MIght want to put a grounding jumper across that blue water filter while you are at it.
Yeah, good call. It currently has about a #20 conductor across it with a couple of hose clamps holding it (why even bother????). I'm actually going to remove that filter today since I don't need it, but there's a second one down the line that I need to bond. I picked up some proper clamps and #4 the other day to take care of business.
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:43 AM   #15
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To the OP, #4 is larger than #6. Number 4 would not require any more protection than the #6. Although not required I will run #4 to the rods as it is one less roll of wire I don't have to carry, instead of #4 for the bonds and #6 for the rods.

If you are going with a conduit to feed the new panel there are fittings to make tight turns into the house. An LB is one type. You could also rerun the cable outside and turn in just above the top of the panel instead of coming in where the cable does now.

Power companies can be picky about who is in their sockets. Call the POCO to have the meter pulled or the service disconnected. Either way pulling a meter is definetely not a DIY job.

Permits and inspections will be required before the power is restored.
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