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Old 07-31-2010, 11:30 AM   #1
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Sub-panel questions


I'll soon be adding a sub-panel directly above the 12 space existing one to carry the extra circuits I need now.
How exactly do I go about running the power from one to the next?
I have 100 amp service, more than sufficient for our needs.
I read #6 for power and #10 insulated ground in different threads here, true for me too?
Do I take 2 breakers from the first box and run the 2 blacks from there to 2 more breakers in the top sub-panel?
Do they need to be secured in conduit of any sort if they're inside a wall?
Just gathering the facts before I even start planning!

Thanks!

DM
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:39 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse View Post
I'll soon be adding a sub-panel directly above the 12 space existing one to carry the extra circuits I need now.
How exactly do I go about running the power from one to the next?
I have 100 amp service, more than sufficient for our needs.
I read #6 for power and #10 insulated ground in different threads here, true for me too?
Do I take 2 breakers from the first box and run the 2 blacks from there to 2 more breakers in the top sub-panel?
Do they need to be secured in conduit of any sort if they're inside a wall?
Just gathering the facts before I even start planning!

Thanks!

DM
My first inclination would be to just replace your 12 space panel completely with a larger size panel.

To add another panel above it, you need a nipple (short piece of pipe) and some short pieces of wire, their size has to be determined. What loads are you going to be putting in the sub-panel?

"Do I take 2 breakers from the first box and run the 2 blacks from there to 2 more breakers in the top sub-panel?" Close, but you need to use a 2-pole breaker in the panel feeding the sub-panel. Inside the sub panel, you can get a cheaper MLO (Main Lug Only) panel in which you would land the wires on lugs connected directly to the bus. There is no need to have a main breaker in this panel.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:46 AM   #3
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I'd LIKE to just put in a new one, but because of the way things go, I need to keep the main panel in use, add all the new circuits to the sub, then have him inspect that. We have to live here while I do all this, so we need the power to remain on.

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Old 07-31-2010, 11:50 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse View Post
I'd LIKE to just put in a new one, but because of the way things go, I need to keep the main panel in use, add all the new circuits to the sub, then have him inspect that. We have to live here while I do all this, so we need the power to remain on.

DM
You can't upgrade the panel to a larger size, have him inspect it, then add the new circuits afterwards as needed? This is a fairly common procedure.

Changing out a panel would only take a couple hours, I usually do it without power but you can always run an extension to you neighbor's house if needed.

If you don't want to do it that way, then let's continue on with the sub-panel. What are you going to be putting on this sub-panel?
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:51 AM   #5
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Let me see... hmmm.... 3 bedroom 15a afci's, 2 20a kitchen circuits, 2 20a bathroom circuits, and the 15a dining room, and the light circuit I'm working on today. Also, I guess I'll need to move 2 circuits from below to make room for the breaker, huh? I'll choose 2 15a circuits most likely.

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Old 07-31-2010, 11:52 AM   #6
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If possible I'd install it to one side
That way if you do replace the existing panel you can leave the sub where it is

(3) #6s & a #10 ground
If individual wires they need to be in conduit
If a cable then no conduit needed

I think you know - grounds & neutrals on seperate bars in the sub
Neutral bar not grounded to the panel
My sub is 3' to the left & has a main breaker -freebie panel from a friend

Hopefully you will not need to supply a whole house load calc
I did not have to....but I have a 200a main



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Old 07-31-2010, 11:57 AM   #7
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You can't upgrade the panel to a larger size, have him inspect it, then add the new circuits afterwards as needed?
Yes, but of course, it's be another $50.00 too, and he'd see the wires leftover laying all over the place and shut me down! LOL

I also have the advantage of having a breaker outside on the pole, so it's easy and safe for me to do anything I have to inside, and it's VERY well lit in the daytime! Po)

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Old 07-31-2010, 12:12 PM   #8
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DM.,

I know you mention outside main breaker.

That is a nice avangate you can take so you can actally install larger breaker box by turn off the main breaker at the pole location so the inside breaker box is off complety and you can able swap it over in couple hours if you done it right.

What the breaker box size you have now { I allready know you mention 100 amp service } like 16 or 20 space box ?

You can able get the 30 space 100 amp main breaker box without issue but only one item you will have to do is get the grounding buss bar { some may have it and some don't depending on what brand name the Culter-Hammer CH series is very easy just take the bonding screw and short soild jumper off { it will be a green screw so you can not miss it but other brand it will depend on the set up }

so that one option you can do that.

Merci.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:12 PM   #9
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I have a narrow space to install both panels, so anywhere else makes no sense, however, if I ever DO decide to put in a single panel, then it'll be easiest to patch the wall back up too! Remove 2 shorts, put in one long!

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Old 07-31-2010, 12:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
one item you will have to do is get the grounding bus bar
I did this panel, so it already has the separate bus bars for neutral and ground.
Sooo, would the 'cable' I need be the same orange cable I used for the water heater? (electric)

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Old 07-31-2010, 12:48 PM   #11
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DM.,

If the waterheater is straght 240 volts it is not a issue at all the bare conductor will land on grounding bussbar the hot just do the same fashon as what you did took off from the main box to sub panel.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:55 PM   #12
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That made no sense! lol

I guess what I'm asking is what color and/or awg #s are the cable I need to run 2' of wire from one to the other?

Will it have all 4 wires I need?

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Old 07-31-2010, 10:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse View Post
That made no sense! lol

I guess what I'm asking is what color and/or awg #s are the cable I need to run 2' of wire from one to the other?

Will it have all 4 wires I need?

DM
Opps I did not read very carefull due I was half sleepy { of course I am in Paris France time zone }

Ok if you going to use the conduit then you will need 16mm˛{ 6AWG } for both hot conductor and netural { it will be red , black and white } for grounding conductor it will be 6 mm˛ { 10 AWG } that is sized for 60 amp breaker to feed the sub panel. { the conductor it will be THHN/THWN type }

However if you don't want the conduit then you can use the NM cable again it will be 16mm˛ X3 { 6-3 NM } with ground and use 50 amp breaker.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:29 PM   #14
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Dang....the more I think about this, the more I think I'll just suck it up and buy a new panel.... *sigh*
Heck, the inspector never even SAW this panel! How will he know it's a new one? I can just move the ones from this box and keep using the power, then have all of the new circuits ready for him to inspect.... Po) And I won't even have to buy another ground bus 'cause I already have one! *yay me*

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Old 08-01-2010, 09:43 PM   #15
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DM.,

I know SqD and CutterHammer both have 30 space verison of the 100 amp load centre and I think Seamens do have them as well but not sure with the price but I know it will be about 100 Euros in somewhere but check it out maybe you may get lucky with discounted models which they do show up once a while.

Merci.
Marc
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