Service Upgrade - Ground Bonding Question - Electrical - Page 2 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Old 05-30-2009, 11:00 AM   #16
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,341
Rewards Points: 2,652
Default


Thats fine but the meter can sure would have been a handy and easy place to bring the ges to the grounded conductor in your situation. Now you don't get to use those bonding lugs sitting there all nice and pretty.... Be sure to use the correct awg for the gec if they require you to bond the water pipe. #6 cu is all that is required for the ground rods. It is very common to only bond one of the panels. I was hoping for the meter can....
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-30-2009, 11:15 AM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Thats fine but the meter can sure would have been a handy and easy place to bring the ges to the grounded conductor in your situation. Now you don't get to use those bonding lugs sitting there all nice and pretty.... Be sure to use the correct awg for the gec if they require you to bond the water pipe. #6 cu is all that is required for the ground rods. It is very common to only bond one of the panels. I was hoping for the meter can....
I agree. One can hope.

I cannot see how I can utilize the water pipe due to it's location and not readily being available.

So, #6 AWG copper is no longer big enough since I am only bonding one 200 amp panel, right?
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-30-2009, 10:57 PM   #18
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,341
Rewards Points: 2,652
Default


Quote:
So, #6 AWG copper is no longer big enough since I am only bonding one 200 amp panel, right?
Yes it is big enough. You only have to connect to ground rods with maximum #6 awg copper.
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-31-2009, 12:20 AM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Default

issue of grounding Meter can + other panel


As other [Master Electricians] pointed out that Grounding at two points is wrong (will create parallel path to ground) and does not help (as you suggested, "for added protection"). But my biggest problem with this service is that you fail to BOND the water main to the grounding rods.
p.s.: I'm assuming that this is a RESIDENTIAL service. In NYC, the POCO,CON ED does not provide residential service more than 200Amps.
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 02:42 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
p.s.: I'm assuming that this is a RESIDENTIAL service. In NYC, the POCO,CON ED does not provide residential service more than 200Amps.
Yes, this is Residential service in Ohio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
As other [Master Electricians] But my biggest problem with this service is that you fail to BOND the water main to the grounding rods.
I am perplexed how I am expected to do that in this scenario. I guess I'll call the county inspector tomorrow and see what he says he'll require.

I suppose I could trench over to the water line and drop 1/2" PVC pipe and wire in there to do the bonding.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 02:47 PM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Actually, it may not be copper now that I think about it.

Yesterday when OUPS was out here to mark all utilities, I talked him into trying to help me find the water line.

He drove his grounding rod in and gave me the other wire which I put on the "copper" fitting coming out of the wall in the basement.

He never was able to make continuity between the line and ground to locate the line.

SO, it is possible, it comes from the meter by the road (220' away) and is black plastic line and when it gets to the basement, they used a compression copper adapter to switchover to the copper supply in the house.

If that is the case, then the bonding issue is a mute point, right?
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 04:01 PM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Necessity of bonding water supply to Ground!


Not really. Even if the stretch of pipe from the water main @ the road into the house is plastic, there's still the issue of buried pipe inside the house, which can create another path to ground (which is potentially very dangerous) and according to the NEC should be BONDED to the GROUNDING LEAD/ROD! I'm going out on a limb, here. But I would suggest you try to find the CLOSEST COPPER (or, Heaven forbid, other metal) JOINT where the water supply enters the house. Put a CLAMP on it and run it straight to the GROUNDING ROD!NOW. but LATER!!!
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 09:46 PM   #23
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
Not really. Even if the stretch of pipe from the water main @ the road into the house is plastic, there's still the issue of buried pipe inside the house, which can create another path to ground (which is potentially very dangerous) and according to the NEC should be BONDED to the GROUNDING LEAD/ROD! I'm going out on a limb, here. But I would suggest you try to find the CLOSEST COPPER (or, Heaven forbid, other metal) JOINT where the water supply enters the house. Put a CLAMP on it and run it straight to the GROUNDING ROD!NOW. but LATER!!!
I don't follow you. How can one have buried pipe inside a house?

In my basement, I have no more than about 30' of copper before it switches over to PEX.

It is copper from the regulator/shutoff at the basement wall, to my water softener and then the water heater. Once it exits the water heater, it switches to PEX for everything else.

Nothing is being grounded to the copper lines (unless the WH has something internal). I know this because I redid the copper portion when I upgraded the HVAC system.

Now, I could put a grounding rod in on that part of the basement and ground the copper line....this would be un-related to the electrical grounding rods.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest

Last edited by AndrewF; 05-31-2009 at 09:48 PM.
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 10:03 PM   #24
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,341
Rewards Points: 2,652
Default


If your water line from the utility is plastic then you do not have to bond it to the service as an electrode. You have PEX after that. The ground rods are all that is required as a minimum.
__________________
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

Stubbie
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 09:05 PM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Sigh. I cannot seem to find the exact answer and the county inspector hasnt responded to my inquiry.

I think I will run one continuous piece of copper from Panel A, to Panel B to Ground Rod #1 to Ground rod #2 and will utilize the bonding terminal in each 200 amp panel to bond the ground to neutral.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 09:33 PM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Issue with grounding NEUTRAL in Subpanel


According to NEC, The NEUTRAL may not be GROUNDED in a SUBPANEL. As it should in the SERVICE panel. Bonding the TWO Grounding rods to each other and to the Brass fitting at the water main is OK. Don't Drink and Drive!!!
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 06:21 AM   #27
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
According to NEC, The NEUTRAL may not be GROUNDED in a SUBPANEL. As it should in the SERVICE panel. Bonding the TWO Grounding rods to each other and to the Brass fitting at the water main is OK. Don't Drink and Drive!!!
Neither panel is a sub-panel of the other, so this rule does not apply.

To clarify, it is a dual lug meter base. Each 200 amp panel will be fed from the Meter Socket.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 07:41 AM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


Final word from the inspector.

Loop the GEC from Panel A to Panel B, to Rod #1 to Rod #2.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2009, 01:25 PM   #29
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dayton Ohio Area
Posts: 671
Rewards Points: 502
Default


I passed the inspection this morning.

The inspector that came out said that I could have used the Meter socket as the bonding point.

Meaning, run the GEC from each panel to the MS, then a single run from the MS to each grounding rod.

I did not have to bond to any water lines.
__________________
-Andrew
DIY hobbiest
AndrewF is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
150amp to 200amp service upgrade... theatretch85 Electrical 30 07-06-2009 05:02 PM
ground rod question paul_arc Electrical 7 04-14-2009 08:09 PM
Service upgrade rondo Electrical 1 05-21-2007 06:19 PM
Subpanel feeder questions Silhanek Electrical 4 03-22-2007 06:30 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts