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Old 05-25-2013, 08:22 PM   #1
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running ground for new upgraded 200 Amp service


Working on my 200A upgrade. I am running 4 gauge wire to the water pipe, 2 different ground rods, and a meter ground. Local town wants the meter grounded, they said I could use a rod that I use for the disconnect. I understand I can use 6 gauge to the ground rods, but I needed to buy enough 4 gauge to make it to the water pipe, and it was actually cheaper to buy a full spool and not buy any 6 gauge. So, please no comments about a waste of money for using 4 gauge instead of 6 on the ground rods.

Any requirement on how far the ground wire and rod is to be under ground? I have 5/8 x 8 foot rods, and I want them under ground because they will be where my kids play, but I don't want to put them 24 inches below the surface, if only a few inches will due.

Does each ground wire need to come out its own knockout? the box only has one 1/4 knockout for a ground, but I will have 3 ground wires coming out of the disconnect, 2 ground rods, and one water pipe.

the meter can has two 1/4 inch knockouts for ground, would I be allowed to run the ground wires from the disconnect in to the meter can, and out those knockouts and down to the ground rods, and just bond the meter can to the disconnect ground/neutral bar? I am using schedule 80 2 - 1/2 for the nipple between the meter and disconnect, with #3/0 THHN from the meter to the disconnect. So two ground wires would run from the disconnect through the meter to the ground rods, and one would run back in from the meter to the disconnect.

Or, do I run them all out a larger hole in the disconnect and use a proper sized clamp? And run the meter ground to the rod out its own 1/4 ground knockout.

I am running #4/0-#4/0-#4/0-#2/0 Aluminum SE-R from the disconnect to the main panel in the house. part of that will be in schedule 80 2 - 1/2 conduit, where it is in the garage. does code allow the ground wire to go in the conduit as well, or does it allow for it to be outside that conduit? the less wire I have to pull through conduit, the happier I will be.

I think that takes care of my grounding questions. I need a clarification on my conduit run, but I will put that in another post later.

thanks,
Michael
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Old 05-25-2013, 09:15 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbaldwin View Post
Working on my 200A upgrade. I am running 4 gauge wire to the water pipe, 2 different ground rods, and a meter ground. Local town wants the meter grounded, they said I could use a rod that I use for the disconnect. I understand I can use 6 gauge to the ground rods, but I needed to buy enough 4 gauge to make it to the water pipe, and it was actually cheaper to buy a full spool and not buy any 6 gauge. So, please no comments about a waste of money for using 4 gauge instead of 6 on the ground rods.

Any requirement on how far the ground wire and rod is to be under ground? I have 5/8 x 8 foot rods, and I want them under ground because they will be where my kids play, but I don't want to put them 24 inches below the surface, if only a few inches will due.

Does each ground wire need to come out its own knockout? the box only has one 1/4 knockout for a ground, but I will have 3 ground wires coming out of the disconnect, 2 ground rods, and one water pipe.

the meter can has two 1/4 inch knockouts for ground, would I be allowed to run the ground wires from the disconnect in to the meter can, and out those knockouts and down to the ground rods, and just bond the meter can to the disconnect ground/neutral bar? I am using schedule 80 2 - 1/2 for the nipple between the meter and disconnect, with #3/0 THHN from the meter to the disconnect. So two ground wires would run from the disconnect through the meter to the ground rods, and one would run back in from the meter to the disconnect.

Or, do I run them all out a larger hole in the disconnect and use a proper sized clamp? And run the meter ground to the rod out its own 1/4 ground knockout.

I am running #4/0-#4/0-#4/0-#2/0 Aluminum SE-R from the disconnect to the main panel in the house. part of that will be in schedule 80 2 - 1/2 conduit, where it is in the garage. does code allow the ground wire to go in the conduit as well, or does it allow for it to be outside that conduit? the less wire I have to pull through conduit, the happier I will be.

I think that takes care of my grounding questions. I need a clarification on my conduit run, but I will put that in another post later.

thanks,
Michael

ground rods get pounded in straight down .. 8' basically .. bronze acron nut and you can pound it in couple inches more below the surface ... must be min. 6' part ..
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Old 05-25-2013, 09:59 PM   #3
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Pound the ground rods all the way in, almost flush with the ground surface. Okay, you can have an inch protruding, or it does not matter if you pounded it in a tad too far.

Run a continuous length of the #4 wire from the panel neutral bus to the ground rods. Run a separate #4 wire to the water pipe but this one may be clamped on to the first wire if it reaches there before reaching the panel.

These ground wires (grounding electrode conductors) can all come out the same knockout. A clamp will make it look neater and also keep a mouse from squeezing in through the hole.
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Last edited by AllanJ; 05-25-2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbaldwin View Post
Working on my 200A upgrade. I am running 4 gauge wire to the water pipe, 2 different ground rods, and a meter ground. Local town wants the meter grounded, they said I could use a rod that I use for the disconnect. I understand I can use 6 gauge to the ground rods, but I needed to buy enough 4 gauge to make it to the water pipe, and it was actually cheaper to buy a full spool and not buy any 6 gauge. So, please no comments about a waste of money for using 4 gauge instead of 6 on the ground rods.

Basically from the load centre to the ground rods typically use the 16mm2 ( #6 awg ) copper conductor but 25mm2 ( #4 awg ) is plenty fine as well due you are above the minum code requirement.

Any requirement on how far the ground wire and rod is to be under ground? I have 5/8 x 8 foot rods, and I want them under ground because they will be where my kids play, but I don't want to put them 24 inches below the surface, if only a few inches will due.

Sink the ground rods few inches below the finshed ground level and bury the conductor about 6 inches or so right against the fondation wall unless stated differnt on your local codes.

Does each ground wire need to come out its own knockout? the box only has one 1/4 knockout for a ground, but I will have 3 ground wires coming out of the disconnect, 2 ground rods, and one water pipe.

Common way I deal with this is use the half inch NM clamp and clamp the heck out of it you are well bonded once you get the lockring good and tight.

the meter can has two 1/4 inch knockouts for ground, would I be allowed to run the ground wires from the disconnect in to the meter can, and out those knockouts and down to the ground rods, and just bond the meter can to the disconnect ground/neutral bar? I am using schedule 80 2 - 1/2 for the nipple between the meter and disconnect, with #3/0 THHN from the meter to the disconnect. So two ground wires would run from the disconnect through the meter to the ground rods, and one would run back in from the meter to the disconnect.

Becarefull with this part due you will have to check with your POCO requirment with the meter box and grounding set up due most POCO do not want any ground conductor in the meter box.

But if you have a disconnect switch aka main breaker right below the meter socket then it will be no issue at all.


Or, do I run them all out a larger hole in the disconnect and use a proper sized clamp? And run the meter ground to the rod out its own 1/4 ground knockout.

I am running #4/0-#4/0-#4/0-#2/0 Aluminum SE-R from the disconnect to the main panel in the house. part of that will be in schedule 80 2 - 1/2 conduit, where it is in the garage. does code allow the ground wire to go in the conduit as well, or does it allow for it to be outside that conduit? the less wire I have to pull through conduit, the happier I will be.

I think that takes care of my grounding questions. I need a clarification on my conduit run, but I will put that in another post later.

thanks,
Michael
My reply in Bleu.

As I mention about the meter socket itself that part you will have to check with the POCO for the requirement unless you have combo meter socket aka meter socket with main breaker or have seperated item the final answer will varies a bit so check with them and your inspectors for latest details on them.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:58 PM   #5
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I did not think it was code still to ground to a water pipe? I thought you have to use min two 5/8 inch 8 foot rods min 6' apart?
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:05 PM   #6
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I did not think it was code still to ground to a water pipe? I thought you have to use min two 5/8 inch 8 foot rods min 6' apart?
Ya still have to sink the ground rods unless you have the ufer ( rods in the concrete ) and for the water pipes if steel or copper pipe all by the means do it due majorty of them useally are more than 10 feet anyway.

But a nice gotcha is if you have plastique water main then you have no choice but use the ground rods.

There is specal extempt for single rods but not worth the time and money and hassle to get under 25 ohms requirment so majorty of us do is sink duex rods and be done with it.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:28 AM   #7
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ground rods get pounded in straight down .. 8' basically .. bronze acron nut and you can pound it in couple inches more below the surface ... must be min. 6' part ..
Not always. They also get pounded at an angle, or placed as a grid, depending on how close bedrock is to the surface. Then there is the better system of using the Ufer ground system.



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Old 05-26-2013, 12:29 AM   #8
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I did not think it was code still to ground to a water pipe? I thought you have to use min two 5/8 inch 8 foot rods min 6' apart?
It is still here, that you can use the Cold water pipe as a ground for the main panel, but the meter pan has to be grounded to a ground rod. Unless you have PEX or CPVC, then it is a ground from the panel to the ground rod.



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Old 05-26-2013, 12:31 AM   #9
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It is still here, that you can use the Cold water pipe as a ground for the main panel, but the meter pan has to be grounded to a ground rod.
Greg.,

Just want to give you a nice reminder that some POCO will not allow any ground conductor inside the meter box so some will say ok and some will no ground conductor in there.

To OP the only way you can do this is check with your POCO to see what they have on their regulations reguarding of using the ground conductor.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:38 AM   #10
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Greg.,

Just want to give you a nice reminder that some POCO will not allow any ground conductor inside the meter box so some will say ok and some will no ground conductor in there.

To OP the only way you can do this is check with your POCO to see what they have on their regulations reguarding of using the ground conductor.

Merci,
Marc
You did not read what I posted either. Looks like some on here today are making up or rewording what others have posted. My area allows the use of the cold water pipe as the ground for the main and sub-panel in the residence, and the meter pan is grounded to the earth ground, along with any incoming communication wires (antenna, catv, telephone, internet).

Also as I posted before, in my area, the only time of course that you cannot use the cold water piping as a grounding system, is when you have PEX or CPVC installed, due to it does not create a continuous bonding system, that would allow you to connect a ground from the main panel or sub-panel inside the structure to the incoming potable water pipe. Then you have to use a ground rod, or Ufer ground to connect the panel to.



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Old 05-26-2013, 06:12 AM   #11
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You must use the incoming water as a grounding electrode if the incoming water is metallic piping. The house side plumbing method makes no difference. The whole house could be plumbed with plastic, but if the incoming water is metal you must bond it according to the NEC.
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:51 AM   #12
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thanks for the responses to my grounding.
I plan to get this part of it done in the next week or so. we are expecting a lot of rain, that should make it easier to drive the rods down.
I'll double check with my POCO on the meter grounding, but I think right now my plan is to run #4 from the meter ground lug to the first rod with a second clamp.
I'll see how close I can get the rods to the house. I really do not want the kids tripping on them. they will most likely be 10 to 15 feet apart. I want to get one of the rods closer to the phone box so it can be grounded. Very little in this house is grounded.

Thanks,
Michael
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