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Old 08-16-2010, 01:16 PM   #1
RST
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Rewiring Questions


Hi, I'm gradually rewiring my house, one room at a time. A few questions:

1. Do receptacles in the dining room get AFCI, GFCI, or both? I thought I read somewhere that kitchen circuits may also feed DR outlets but I didn't think AFCI was required for a kitchen. So along those lines...

2. Do receptacles in the kitchen that do NOT serve countertops need GFCI and/or AFCI protection?

3. Do ALL bathroom outlets need GFCI protection, or only those within a certain distance of the sink?

4. Finally, I have a receptacle in one BR that is connected to the LR circuit, and one in the DR that is on a BR circuit. Should I switch these to the "correct" circuits or not worry about it?

Thanks!
Robert

Last edited by RST; 08-17-2010 at 12:02 AM. Reason: (deleted a question; figured out the answer to it)
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:45 PM   #2
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bump - this forum sure has been active lately
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:23 PM   #3
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Existing circuits that met code at the time they were installed do not need to be modified to meet todays code
Hard wired smokes/CO detectors are one exception








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Old 08-17-2010, 10:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RST View Post
Hi, I'm gradually rewiring my house, one room at a time. A few questions:

1. Do receptacles in the dining room get AFCI, GFCI, or both? I thought I read somewhere that kitchen circuits may also feed DR outlets but I didn't think AFCI was required for a kitchen. So along those lines...
Nope in Dinning room they can be part of SABC { see the map what Scuba Dave provided above my comment }

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Originally Posted by RST View Post
2. Do receptacles in the kitchen that do NOT serve countertops need GFCI and/or AFCI protection?
only GFCI no AFCI is needed and that will cover entire kitchen area in USA. Canada is little diffrent IIRC 1 meter from sink yes GFCI but after that it up to the local codes but I belive it will cover about the same as I mention before in USA side.

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3. Do ALL bathroom outlets need GFCI protection, or only those within a certain distance of the sink?
All the bathroom receptales must have GFCI there is no extempts on that however there a nice gotcha it depending on how you bring the bathroom circuit it will go two ways

1 ) one circuit for all the receptale and light [ nothing else can go out of this one }

OR

2 ) one circuit for all bathroom receptales while lights on seperated circuits that is one of two legit option.


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Originally Posted by RST View Post
4. Finally, I have a receptacle in one BR that is connected to the LR circuit, and one in the DR that is on a BR circuit. Should I switch these to the "correct" circuits or not worry about it?

Thanks!
Robert
If you going with AFCI route ditch that DR receptale otherwise you will run into issue circuit and codes but for LR and BR that is not a issue if you are on 2008 NEC code cycle but 2005 NEC code cycle it have to be bedroom only

But most local code may have few change will override what I type so check with them as well for latest info.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:06 PM   #5
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Thanks for the help guys, a few followup questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Existing circuits that met code at the time they were installed do not need to be modified to meet todays code
Hard wired smokes/CO detectors are one exception
I thought someone (on this forum) said that in case of a rewire I had to bring them the existing circuits up to code. Not just replacing receptacles here, I'm running new cable too. Just wanted to doublecheck that before I go installing additional receptacles all over the place and doing other things to meet modern standards.

Marc - If the dining room receptacles are on SABC, wouldn't that violate the AFCI requirement? (See Scuba Dave's diagram.) We are on NEC 2008, but my state does not require AFCIs. But, I might as well arrange things out so someone else could add AFCIs in the future.

Thanks,
RST
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:14 PM   #6
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If the dining room is fed from the SABC you would need to provide AFCI protection. Currently the only way to do this is by using a AFCI breaker which would cover the whole circuit.

If you are running new cables you will need to meet the current codes.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:19 PM   #7
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Thanks, I think I will wire the DR with the LR. They are open to each other, already connected, and only 3 (4?) receptacles are needed. I'll keep the SABCs in the kitchen.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:27 PM   #8
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If the dining room is fed from the SABC you would need to provide AFCI protection. Currently the only way to do this is by using a AFCI breaker which would cover the whole circuit.

If you are running new cables you will need to meet the current codes.
That's right. NEC 210.12 clearly lists dining rooms as part of the requirements listed for the section.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:42 PM   #9
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Thanks, I think I will wire the DR with the LR. They are open to each other, already connected, and only 3 (4?) receptacles are needed. I'll keep the SABCs in the kitchen.
No, the DR cannot share a receptacle circuit with the LR.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:41 PM   #10
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Thanks for the help so far. I guess I will wire the DR on the SABCs then. I'm curious to know why the LR and DR can't be together. In my case, there isn't even a physical divider, just the LR extends further out into the yard.

I was planning to wire one BR with the LR and put the other two BRs on their own circuit. If this is wrong, please let me know.

We also have a separate family/media room, so most of the "heavy circuit use" is there (and in the kitchen, of course).

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Old 08-18-2010, 10:54 PM   #11
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The code limits the SABC to the kitchen, dining room, and pantry receptacles. A living room is not on the list to share the SABC.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:39 PM   #12
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That one reason why the Dinning room have to be on SABC but it have to be AFCI as well unless it stated diffrent in your local codes { I doubt it but you can check it out }


As Magnettica explain with that part and that is clear cut details with the codes.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Magnettica View Post
That's right. NEC 210.12 clearly lists dining rooms as part of the requirements listed for the section.
So the dining room needs AFCI
And if it is fed from the SABC then both must be AFCI

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I guess I will wire the DR on the SABCs then. I'm curious to know why the LR and DR can't be together. In my case, there isn't even a physical divider, just the LR extends further out into the yard.

RST
see 210.52
Myself I prefer the Dining room on a 3rd seperate circuit

Quote:

In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.



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Old 08-20-2010, 02:09 PM   #14
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Thanks for clearing that up. I finally understand! A little embarrassed to admit this, but I had misread that section. I didn't understand that the dining room MUST be on a SABC, I thought that it was optional to continue the SABC(s) into the dining room.

To anyone that stumbles onto this thread in the future, this thread is also helpful (it helped me)
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/gfci-afci-sabc-79218/

RST
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:55 PM   #15
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I'm not sure why
In the past a Dining room was used for dining
To reduce available power in the kitchen by adding Dining rm outlets does not make sense to me

But possibly due to the fact that a dining room in many cases is now actually open & part of the kitchen
My dining rm is on a general circuit w/parts of the rest of the house
....wired in the 50's

I added 2 more outlets in the dining room...off a mostly unused circuit
Since the existing circuit was overloaded & included lighting



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