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Old 01-14-2010, 10:02 PM   #1
 
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Power for shop from meter/main


I have a combo meter/main, 200 amp on a pole next to my house. It is a siemens mc0408mb1200t with 8 ckt capacity. It has a 200a breaker that supplies my house, a 30a that supplies my wellhouse and a 20a that supplies my septic. I have built a 32x40 shop next to my house (12 ft away) that i want to put at least a 100a panel in (welder, air compressor, woodworking tools, etc.). From my research of this siemens meter/main i can not put more than a 50a breaker in it due to the narrow design( can't bend a #4 wire that sharp). Is there another legal way to get 100a out of this panel? I have attached pics so you can see what i mean. I hate to shell out $$$$ to replace this if i don't have to. I am in pierce county, wa. Thanks to all of you who share your knowledge with us folks that do other things for a living.
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Power for shop from meter/main-p1060510.jpg   Power for shop from meter/main-p1060511.jpg   Power for shop from meter/main-p1060513.jpg  
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:59 AM   #2
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You can put a 100 amp breaker in that meter/panel if you have two spare slots. I do not see two spare slots. You need #3 Cu for a 100 amp feeder, not #4.
If your only concern is the bending radius of the conductors, do not concern yourself. It is not an issue. The room for the breaker is my only concern.

Last edited by J. V.; 01-16-2010 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:02 PM   #3
 
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I HAVE SPACE (3 EMPTY SLOTS, AND NO I WON'T RUN OFF THIS PANEL TO MY SHOP) IN MY HOUSE PANEL TO MOVE THE 20A FOR MY SEPTIC, THERE IS AN EMPTY 20A THAT USED TO SUPPLY THE OLD WELLHOUSE WITH LIGHTS AND HEAT. THAT WOULD GIVE ME THE TWO SPACES FOR A 100A. LOOKS PRETTY TIGHT IN THERE. THE INFO ON THIS LINK SAYS THAT 60A BRAKER IS MAX DUE TO SPACE RESTRICTIONS. IS THAT SOMETHING AN INSPECTER WOULD KNOW AND CALL ME ON.

http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/contr...2/02_19-21.pdf

I WAS WONDERING IF MAYBE I COULD USE THE FEEDER TAP RULE AND FIND THE DOUBLE LUG ADAPTERS TO COME OFF THE 200A MAIN LUGS. I WOULD HAVE LESS THAN 25 FT RUN, NOT LESS THAN 1/3 SIZE WIRE, AND HAVE PANEL WITH MAIN DISCONNECT IN SHOP. DOES ANYBODY HAVE A THOUGHT ON THIS, AND WHERE COULD I GET DOUBLE LUG ADAPTERS?
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TIRDOLDMECH View Post
I HAVE SPACE (3 EMPTY SLOTS, AND NO I WON'T RUN OFF THIS PANEL TO MY SHOP) IN MY HOUSE PANEL TO MOVE THE 20A FOR MY SEPTIC, THERE IS AN EMPTY 20A THAT USED TO SUPPLY THE OLD WELLHOUSE WITH LIGHTS AND HEAT. THAT WOULD GIVE ME THE TWO SPACES FOR A 100A. LOOKS PRETTY TIGHT IN THERE. THE INFO ON THIS LINK SAYS THAT 60A BRAKER IS MAX DUE TO SPACE RESTRICTIONS. IS THAT SOMETHING AN INSPECTER WOULD KNOW AND CALL ME ON.

You can use this panel or the sub panel in the house. If you have two spare slots you can put a 100 amp breaker in either one. It would seem this outside panel would be the ideal place to run the feeder. I do not see your meter panel in the link. Where are you getting this information that a 60 amp breaker is the max you can use?



I WAS WONDERING IF MAYBE I COULD USE THE FEEDER TAP RULE AND FIND THE DOUBLE LUG ADAPTERS TO COME OFF THE 200A MAIN LUGS. I WOULD HAVE LESS THAN 25 FT RUN, NOT LESS THAN 1/3 SIZE WIRE, AND HAVE PANEL WITH MAIN DISCONNECT IN SHOP. DOES ANYBODY HAVE A THOUGHT ON THIS, AND WHERE COULD I GET DOUBLE LUG ADAPTERS?


There is no reason you should be considering tapping anything. You have the means to install a 100 amp breaker in either panel. This 100 amp breaker should be used for the feeder and subsequent main breaker sub panel in the new building.


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Old 01-16-2010, 01:10 PM   #5
 
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IF YOU GO TO THAT LINK, ON THE SECOND PAGE, MY METER MAIN IS THE 10TH ONE LISTED, mc0408mb1200t, AT THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN IS NOTES, #3 NOTE SAYS "DUE TO WIRE SPACE RESTRICTIONS ON THE TROUGH SIDE, THE LEFT SIDE OF THE INTERIOR IS LIMITED TO A 60A MAX BRANCH"
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:44 PM   #6
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You are correct about the panel listing and you would be in violation installing a 100 amp breaker. I also understand what J.V. is saying but an inspector would probably not pass it if he has the information about the restriction for wire bending space.

Your thoughts about using the 25 foot tap rule are close to correct but you would really be under the outdoor unlimited tap rule and would certainly be acceptable.

Are double lugs kits made for this panel or are you yet to determine that information?

Sorry I see you are asking if they are ... you would have to go to an electrical supply or contact siemens to find out.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:23 PM   #7
 
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Thanks guys. I have looked all over the internet and have yet to find a double lug kit. I will try calling siemens and see what they say.
If i do find them then i "can" run up to a 200a panel in my shop, correct?
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TIRDOLDMECH View Post
Thanks guys. I have looked all over the internet and have yet to find a double lug kit. I will try calling siemens and see what they say.
If i do find them then i "can" run up to a 200a panel in my shop, correct?
Yep you can but remember the 200 amp breaker is under the load of both the house and shop .. likely will never be a problem. Two 200 AMP panels would be unnecessary though. If your wanting plenty of circuits for the shop there are several 100 and 125 amp panels with 30 or 32 circuits available.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:14 AM   #9
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Sorry I missed the rule in the specs. From what I can see there is plenty room. But rules are rules.
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:45 PM   #10
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try this site for double lugs that you can use.there not siemens but they will work just the same.www.midsouthelectronics.com/Lug Panel Board.htm
i would go 100A or 125A like stubbie suggested should be plenty of space.
hope this helps good luck!!
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:25 PM   #11
 
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THANKS FOR THE LINK. I FOUND ANOTHER ONE, http://www.hialeahmeter.com/lugs.html IN CASE ANYONE IS INTERESTED.
I WOULD LIKE TO GO WITH 125A PANEL. THAT SHOULD BE PLENTY FOR MY SHOP AND SHOULDN'T AFFECT MY HOUSE.
MONDAY I WILL CALL SIEMENS AND SEE IF I GET ANYWHERE WITH THAT, THEN I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO GO TALK TO THE GOOD FOLKS AT THE COUNTY AND SEE IF MY PLAN WILL FLY WITH THEM. I'LL POST MY RESULTS FOR FUTURE REFERENCE. THANKS GUYS!
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