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Old 07-15-2010, 09:04 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
If the concrete does not have rebar in it, is there any way to solve the problem without destroying the pool?
Some company may make a conductive adhesive to get good metal-to-concrete electrical contact.

Other things being equal a pool containing salt water will have less of a voltage gradient.

Other things being equal higher ground current equals more voltage gradient.

A voltage gradient of >1.5 volts per foot of distance can cause paralysis, so says Ray Mullin in his 13th ed. of "Electrical Wiring Residential." The OP may have had a gradient of 0.7 v in several feet.

Scale models of pool setups and surroundings could probably be built and the model could be energized with low voltages, but the scaling equations to estimate real world results for this are probably very complex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations

Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-15-2010 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:30 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I think the OP might be overwhelmed with the discussion.

sounds like OP got a raw deal from the installing electrician as well. If it were me, I would call a reputable electrical company to determine what it would take to correct all of the problems and go after the installer.

Then, when they have a proper installation, they can deal with any problems remaining.
Yes I concur with that reasoning. I believe the OP stated that his area did not require inspections. This is true to an extent and what I have noticed is that you are prone to get a raw deal in areas where inspections are not necessarily considered important. No accountability = magnet for hacks.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:59 AM   #78
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the problem is that connecting the concrete, or at least the ground underneath the concrete is critical . Check out 680.26. It describes what must be included in the grid.

If there is no steel in the concrete and if there was no grid conductor installed under the concrete, I do not believe the OP will be able to overcome the problem. Of course all conductive material in the pool itself must be connected and the water itself as well.

What you are trying to do is have such a low resistance between any/all of the interconnected points that they act as one unit where there can be no difference of potential (or so low it becomes moot) and as such, no current flow. If you have too much resistance from any point to another (such as water to concrete) when the swimmer is placed into that circuit as a parallel path, they will become the pathway for the current flow.
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:29 PM   #79
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:52 PM   #80
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pool water and copper ion


hello dose this pool have copper ion with the salt, copper and salt make a battery, just for fun have you tried to drain the pool and run a test with the niche bond behind the light and the dirt to see if the bond is good? look for continuity, is there battery back up on the computer in the house or radio battery. we have had some problems in the reno area with earthen discharge due to static, with soil that is heavy clay, clay holds water and conducts electricity vary well, is there ground water were your pool is built. bonding the water is simple, just bond the stainless ring on the light and or niche. is there a street light next to the pool, Wet the ground out side and around the pool (make mud) test for voltage, if there is no voltage in the mud and water out side your pool is the problem, if there is voltage in the mud? witch side have more voltage, go to that side and look for electric motors, fans, battery back ups, power pools with grounding, and test. if all fails drain the pool and fill with non salt water and test, copper erosion and salt can produce voltage due to chlorine ppm to high, the chlorine will eat the copper and make a small generator, and cause voltage.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:39 PM   #81
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The OP never said if the voltage was DC or AC.
This is the easiest test in the world to run. DC = battery effect.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:12 PM   #82
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it would be nice if the OP came back and at least answered a few of the questions posed.

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Old 07-15-2010, 07:21 PM   #83
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Yeah that would be nice but I'm losing hope. Anyway glad to see your still around Speedy.

Since we are knee deep in swimming pools I briefly checked a link I saved and it appears to be decently done on the requirements for the EPBG.

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1242.pdf
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:58 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designer-fixit View Post
i hate to say it but you mite just have to completely take out all the heating system and live with a cold pool for now. they obviously did it wrong and you cant put your kids at risk so disconnect it completely and then have it tested to make sure that all the voltage is gone. if you really need it heated that bad then run a hose from the water heater to the pool and warm it up geto style
WHAT??
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:57 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
WHAT??
looks like a post only for the purpose of being able to link their business.

In other words: spam but they seem to allow it here in the manner the guy posted.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:06 AM   #86
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I wonder if I should get a bid for him/her to come to Kansas and paint the inside of my barn??? Will need to bring scaffolding and I'm not letting the horses out....
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:07 AM   #87
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I would (look around the pool and be sure that no one can sneak up on you with in 10 seconds or less and hold onto a gate or something with one hand just in case) recommend that you take pictures of your pool, and if safely possible take pictures of other stuff about the pool and upload them (ImageShack could do good).

Be sure to put a gate if safely possible with pictoral language to not reach into the pool.

If you would like I will upload a picture here (if rules allow) and I will put one up for you and you can copy, paste, send to others etc.

<script src='http://img62.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=swimmingpoolwarning.png&p=tl' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript></noscript>

The picture will take about 20 minutes max to make.

My name is Jason : )

Great luck getting the whole issue(s) worked out ; )

Last edited by Fira; 07-16-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:25 PM   #88
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Actually, with a DVM, a 12 v battery, a concrete flower pot, some soil, some water and some tinfoil, junior scientists and other interested parties might be able to simulate the pool situation, with voltage gradients and the whole bit.

Don't let your wife or your neighbors see you do this.
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Old 07-20-2010, 01:00 AM   #89
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Shocking pool continued


Gentlemen,
I so apologize for the delay in updating you with my pool problem that you have so graciously talked about for what seems like forever. You have no idea how appreciative I am...I would love to place photos in this script area...So I will just tell you step by step what we have done so far....
Swimming pool built in Aug 2007 (neighbors house being built at same time) no shock originally
Open pool for summer of 2008 (Shock noted unable to find source shock from pool water to concrete and pool water to handles)
Closed pool for winter
Opened pool for 2009 ( shock noted, unbale to find c source, called electrician and elec company to find problem, no one could find problem)
Closed pool
Opened pool for 2010 (Tired of people thinking our pool was deadly) CALLED OPUS, Electric company, Pool installer, and electrican) then found you.
Have called the concrete company to findout if rebar in concrete---verified that it was
Electric comapny took us completely off electric box that sits next to our house that also feeds the community park beside us and the tornado siren. Still had 1.7 volts between wter and wet concrete.
Electric company placed 2 more ground rods off the pump motor to yard and placed blocker in the electric box in the yard. Voltage down to .74.
Placed water bonder in skimmer of pool and attached to ground of heater, pump and the water bonder....voltage to .55 on a hot sunny day.....finally gave up and wrapped electrical tape around the pool handles and have rubber mats to sit on arund the pool. You have all be so great with your responses and I have learned and read so many great electrical articles that you have posted. If you can think of anything else I will continue to watch this blog. My next step is to call the county electricl engineer or inspector and have them get ahold of the pool company and maybe they can make them repair things. If I only knew how to get my pitcures of the installation of the pool onto this sit through a URL I would I am sure blow your mind.....especially after everything you have talked about so far...Again thatnk you from a mother and Nurse of 4 little girls I appreciate your talents and knowledge.
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Old 07-20-2010, 01:13 AM   #90
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testing of water tonight


Okay so I just took my voltage meter out and tried some suggestions from here....on the DCV at the 20 marker from wet concrete to water it reads .66
on the omhsat the 2000 mark it reads 1876
on the ACV 200 mark it read 8.9
So please help me understaND WHAT THIS ALL MEANS AND IF THERE IS ANY HELP WITH THESE READINGS???

thanks,
Stacey
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