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Old 07-12-2010, 07:25 PM   #46
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"The National Electrical Code and the National Electrical Safety Code are contributing to the shocking of Americans. The required wiring practices of the two codes encourages the flow of continuous, uncontrolled current over the earth, metallic piping, building steel, etc. This uncontrolled flow of current has resulted in unsafe electrical shocks to humans. This uncontrolled stray current may have resulted in fatalities. Utilities' distribution transformer connections contribute to the flow of stray uncontrolled continuous current. The methods of preventing such stray current is discussed. A case of a swimming pool shocking the bathers is also examined"
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http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-12-2010 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
"The National Electrical Code and the National Electrical Safety Code are contributing to the shocking of Americans. The required wiring practices of the two codes encourages the flow of continuous, uncontrolled current over the earth, metallic piping, building steel, etc. This uncontrolled flow of current has resulted in unsafe electrical shocks to humans. This uncontrolled stray current may have resulted in fatalities. Utilities' distribution transformer connections contribute to the flow of stray uncontrolled continuous current. The methods of preventing such stray current is discussed. A case of a swimming pool shocking the bathers is also examined"
from
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Bull$#@t
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:49 AM   #48
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brric,
What are you saying BS too?
I found this article quite interesting
http://www.eiwellspring.org/tech/The...immingPool.pdf
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:32 AM   #49
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Bull$#@t
Killing the messenger(s) is a time-honored tradition. So is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

It seems that PoCo's practices make most people safe most of the time, but a possibly unavoidable side effect of those same practices is that pool users [10% of the homeowners?] are sometimes endangered.

I'd make or buy a voltage monitor and when it goes off it's Everybody Out Of The Pool Now, preferably using non-metallic ladders.
Hooking it to a single channel recorder with a 24 hour memory could show trends, and if the trend is up it's also EOOTPN.
$20 in parts should cover both the monitor and recorder.

For the OP, perhaps a non-conductive water inlet coupler would work for the moment.

I'm surprised that the utility company hasn't declared this Zipse guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People

Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-13-2010 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:31 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
Killing the messenger(s) is a time-honored tradition. So is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

It seems that PoCo's practices make most people safe most of the time, but a possibly unavoidable side effect of those same practices is that pool users [10% of the homeowners?] are sometimes endangered.

I'd make or buy a voltage monitor and when it goes off it's Everybody Out Of The Pool Now, preferably using non-metallic ladders.
Hooking it to a single channel recorder with a 24 hour memory could show trends, and if the trend is up it's also EOOTPN.
$20 in parts should cover both the monitor and recorder.

For the OP, perhaps a non-conductive water inlet coupler would work for the moment.

I'm surprised that the utility company hasn't declared this Zipse guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People
what is a non-conductive water inlet coupler?

and in the pool situation; no proven conclusion? never solved the problem?

Never any voltage measurements to prove that current flow was even a possibility between any two points?

never any current measurements that proved current flow that the swimmers were claiming?

So, based on their study, nothing should be grounded, right? That is the only way to ensure to remove the problem they are describing.
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:44 PM   #51
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what is a non-conductive water inlet coupler?
A plastic coupler that mates with the existing metallic pipe? The PSI in a pool water inlet pipe can't be very high.
I doubt now that PoCo is going to reduce their in-ground currents so I'd start isolating and insulating, while monitoring voltage.

The OP should also send out e-mails to some of the experts at the bottom of the links who posted their personal e-mail addresses.
It can't hurt.

There's something else I should bring up about public safety.
Schiavo wrote a book called "Flying safe, flying blind" and in it a guy actually said out loud they wouldn't fix an aircraft safety problem because 'not enough people have died.' I thank him for his candor but I also hope to see him some day in a very hot place presided over by a guy with a pitchfork, horns and a tail.

Getting shocked is one thing, which can be kind of a subjective he said/she said type of thing, but there's not much doubt when someone gets killed.
My search for 'wrongful death' and 'pool' turned up a bunch of plaintiff's attorneys and not much else of use. If the number of people who die each year from this in the US is down in the noise, then PoCo is not going to be very motivated to correct this.
How low is down in the noise? Well, for food poisoning it's 5000/yr.

B. Fischoff did a lot of work on this. Public perception turns out to be very important.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-13-2010 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:32 PM   #52
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A typical equipotential grid consists of not one but four copper wires around the perimeter of the pool structure, one is just at the perimeter, one is a foot further out, one two feet out, and one three feet out, all of them bonded at 12 inch intervals (with more copper wire) to form a mesh with 12 inch square openings.

Ideally it is situated under the walkway around the perimeter of the pool but if the pool is already in place without the grid then the grid has to be buried futher outside.

If the pool perimeter walkway is concrete with rebar, then the rebar can be the grid with additional copper wires added to end up with the three foot width.

All metal objects -- the equipotential grid, railings, light housings, ladders, pump components, metal water supply pipe without nonconductive coupler, etc. are bonded together. And all of this is bonded to the ground wire back to the electrical panel.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post

All metal objects -- the equipotential grid, railings, light housings, ladders, pump components, metal water supply pipe without nonconductive coupler, etc. are bonded together. And all of this is bonded to the ground wire back to the electrical panel.
The bold part is optional. There is NO requirement that a bonding grid connection be made to any panel or enclosure.

680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
(B) Bonded Parts.
The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
A typical equipotential grid consists of not one but four copper wires around the perimeter of the pool structure, one is just at the perimeter, one is a foot further out, one two feet out, and one three feet out, all of them bonded at 12 inch intervals (with more copper wire) to form a mesh with 12 inch square openings.

Ideally it is situated under the walkway around the perimeter of the pool but if the pool is already in place without the grid then the grid has to be buried futher outside.

If the pool perimeter walkway is concrete with rebar, then the rebar can be the grid with additional copper wires added to end up with the three foot width.

All metal objects -- the equipotential grid, railings, light housings, ladders, pump components, metal water supply pipe without nonconductive coupler, etc. are bonded together. And all of this is bonded to the ground wire back to the electrical panel.
you missed the water. It's not optional

the steel within the concrete must be included as well, if present.

as does a conductive pool shell


Quote:
I doubt now that PoCo is going to reduce their in-ground currents so I'd start isolating and insulating, while monitoring voltage.
and isolating is exactly how you cause there to be a difference of potential and that is why you get shocked. Insulating is not practical. You can't insulate the water

Last edited by nap; 07-13-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:32 PM   #55
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Insulating is not practical. You can't insulate the water
Well, it's kind of strange.

If you insulate and isolate no current can flow and so no shock.
But if you make everything conductive then virtually no voltage drop and so no shock.
So the two ways are directly opposed.

But at least with isolation, PoCo has no control over the voltage drop by their having heavy currents in the ground.

Fresh water is pretty resistive, salt water and concrete not so much and the human body is in between.
Bulk resistivity is measured in ohm-meters and the actual resistance in ohms depends on the shape of the conductive channel.

tap water, 1M to 100M ohm-meter
fresh water, 1000 ohm-meter
concrete, 200 ohm-meter
human body, 5 ohm-meter
salt water 0.2 ohm-meter
copper, 20 nanoohm-meter

I'd do troubleshooting before changing anything. The usual fixes don't seem to work, but they halved the voltage so they did have some effect.

It's too bad the OP is not nearby - I'd lug my test stuff out there and take a look.
This has got to be even more difficult than troubleshooting AFCIs. This 'semi-conductive circuitry' is three dimensional and the ground current varies with time, soil moisture and maybe other factors.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 07-13-2010 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
If you insulate and isolate no current can flow and so no shock.
until something bridged that isolation.

Quote:
But if you make everything conductive then virtually no voltage drop and so no shock.
who said this? Not I. I said you bond everything so there can be no difference in potential. No difference in potential means you cannot be shocked. It is impossible to be shocked unless there is a difference of potential.



Quote:
But at least with isolation, PoCo has no control over the voltage drop by their having heavy currents in the ground.
with equipotential plane, it doesn't matter because...wait for it...

you have no difference of potential therefor, there cannot be any current flow, no shock

Quote:
Fresh water is pretty resistive, salt water and concrete not so much and the human body is in between.
pretty resistive? Not good enough. You need non-conductive and then when you put contaminates such as the pool chemicals and the salt from your sweat and urine and viola` conductor.


Quote:
Bulk resistivity is measured in ohm-meters and the actual resistance in ohms depends on the shape of the conductive channel.

tap water, 1M to 100M ohm-meter
fresh water, 1000 ohm-meter
concrete, 200 ohm-meter
human body, 5 ohm-meter
salt water 0.2 ohm-meter
copper, 20 nanoohm-meter
your measurements are meaningless and to prove it, read your own link about the pool and read this thread about the OP's kids getting shocked. The fact is; pool water is a good enough conductor to allow current to flow between to points with a difference of potential.

Quote:
I'd do troubleshooting before changing anything. The usual fixes don't seem to work, but they halved the voltage so they did have some effect.
I never advised otherwise. Obviously remove all defects but you also need to install a bonding grid.


Quote:
This has got to be even more difficult than troubleshooting AFCIs. This 'semi-conductive circuitry' is three dimensional and the ground current varies with time, soil moisture and maybe other factors.
it can be very difficult. Again, read the link you posted. Notice the correlation between temps and shocks. There are a huge number of variables that can change things in situations such as this.


Yes, OP needs to correct NEC violations and known defects. OP needs to install a proper equipotential bonding grid. OP needs to have an electrician the has dealt with problems like this.

No sense in trying to short cut this problem ; fix every known problem, look at things that could be a problem, then start over with tests and see where you are.

and to your disagreement about isolation, insulating, and bonding; watch the video I linked about the lineman. That will explain why bonding cures problems that isolation and insulation can only attempt to cure. Bonding actually removes the possibility of a shock. Insulation tries to prevent is but is is only as good as the insulation and only lasts as long as the insulation remains intact. The isolation only works if you can effectively isolate things. The OP's situation proves why it is not viable.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:08 PM   #57
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:07 PM   #58
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I've been reading this thread but confess I need a bit more time to digest everything. The OP seems to be gone but I couldn't help seeing the part about the "non conductive water inlet" yoyizit mentioned, which I wondered what that might be as did nap. Anyway that got me thinking that a guy could just make one of these contraptions and bond the water too ... might make a buck or two .... so I put one together and I'm thinking maybe ask 50 bucks for it and see if it flies.... I think I'll call it "acme water bonder". It's very important that you point the coil at the pump and not the pool for proper polarity. I'm looking for product field testers if anyone is interested.

On a more serious note I didn't catch if it was verified that a bonding grid was in the concrete walkway and bonded to the EPBG ... is it?
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:33 PM   #59
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I've been reading this thread but confess I need a bit more time to digest everything. The OP seems to be gone but I couldn't help seeing the part about the "non conductive water inlet" yoyizit mentioned, which I wondered what that might be as did nap. Anyway that got me thinking that a guy could just make one of these contraptions and bond the water too ... might make a buck or two .... so I put one together and I'm thinking maybe ask 50 bucks for it and see if it flies.... I think I'll call it "acme water bonder". It's very important that you point the coil at the pump and not the pool for proper polarity. I'm looking for product field testers if anyone is interested.
If you provide the pool to install that contraption in as well as the contraption, I'm game. Heck, if you supply the pool, I'll even give you the $50 for the contraption.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:34 PM   #60
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Sorry '
stubbie, looks like someone beat you.

http://cmiwebsite.com/html/pool___spa_-electrical.html

There is also this type
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