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Old 07-11-2010, 08:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
What I had in mind was equalizing any voltage differences in the soil in the vicinity of the pool.
Another way would be to saturate the ground around the pool with a conductive solution. I think they make a product like this for grounding in sandy soils.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:42 PM   #32
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I really don't know for sure what this would do but the idea of "grounding everything" suggested earelier intrigues me.

What would be the effect of burying a bare #6 copper wire about a foot deep and going around just outside the perimeter of the pool, bonding this to the ground wire (grounding conductor) in the existing power cable back to the panel?

What I had in mind was equalizing any voltage differences in the soil in the vicinity of the pool.
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the point of a bonding system has nothing to do with grounding. it also does not necessarily have anything to do with the electrical system. While that is where most shocks come from, there can be electrolytic action between some materials that could produce enough energy to produce a shock.

If the water and the concrete are at the same potential, there will be no shock, regardless how much energy is present so, the water and the concrete must be brought to the same potential via an equipotential bonding grid. If there is no steel in the concret, it presents a problem and if the steel that is in the concrete was not tie wired together throughout the concrete pad, we might have a problem.

What I would do first is to disconnect all power going to the pool area, hot , neutral, and ground conductors and check again.. If that removes the problem, I would start looking for some leakage or a neutral problem. The lights would be a good place to start so, disconnect all conductors leading to the lights, connect the power to the rest of the system and check again.

by chance, did anybody install a fence post or drive anything into the ground near the underground power? and I mean either when it was first installed or anytime since then and if so, is there any correlation to that and the first notice of the shocking?
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:45 PM   #33
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Just a note. This is a quote from the OP in post #5:
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Yes the pool still has the voltage when we are completely and I mean completely removed from the electric company main source.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:37 PM   #34
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Just a note. This is a quote from the OP in post #5:
Can we get a referee's decision?

Unless somebody actually cut the neutral conductor, he was still connected. Since the POCO did come out, they might have actually done that at one point. I would like the OP to verify that though just to be sure.
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:46 AM   #35
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Yes the neutral conductor was disconnetecd. We had the electric company disconnect us like the house did not exist. We still had the voltage in the pool water. When testing from the pool water to wet cement the voltage is there but to dry cement it is not. I contacted the cement company and they stated that there was a grid placed in the concrete when it was poured. Everything has been disconnected all the reachable coneections in junction boxes have been undone and still voltage in pool/ We are going to try and bond the water tonight and I will see how that does....now my next question is..what if we bond the water and there is no voltage but there is a surge at some point later in the future...will the bonded water keep my kids safe from the surge????
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:48 AM   #36
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nap,

We have done no landscaping...there was a fence placed right after installation but it is 5-7 foot away from the cement so it did not have anyway to cut through lines....
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:51 AM   #37
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Is there anyway I can post some pitures so you know and can see what I am talking about with this jobsite???
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:54 AM   #38
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nap,

We have done no landscaping...there was a fence placed right after installation but it is 5-7 foot away from the cement so it did not have anyway to cut through lines....
I wasn't meaning proximity to the concrete. I meant to the power lines. Could be the same in your situation but...

and yes, you can post pics.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:16 PM   #39
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We are going to try and bond the water tonight and I will see how that does....now my next question is..what if we bond the water and there is no voltage but there is a surge at some point later in the future...will the bonded water keep my kids safe from the surge????
Bonding the water is not going to do a thing. The problem is NOT in the water.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:19 PM   #40
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For a temporary but costly fix you might try a mesh made of Monel or some similar alloy fastened to the pipe and surrounding area, depending on how far away the problem extends.
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Not exactly on topic but if you are going to bond the water using a conductive screen or plate, do not use items with sharp edges or corners.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:24 PM   #41
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I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground. Why no sharp edges? does that make a difference? There were no elelctrical lines in the proximity of the pool fence to cut through that we are aware of...we had POCO out to mark all the known lines.
I would love to post some pictures for you all to see what I am dealing with as I am female and pictures make more sense to me to look at and get a whole feel for this situation...When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:51 PM   #42
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Barking up the wrong tree?


Hey everyone: There's no good reason at this point to assume the voltage being measured here is originating from the power grid at all. The first measurement was less than 2 volts. The most recent measurement was less than 1V. Both of those are well within the range of cell potentials for dissimilar metals in conductive solutions. Before jumping to conclusions about stray voltage from utilities and inadequate bonding and such, it would be good to know how those measurements were taken. If the meter was reading DC volts between a (steel or nickel plated) probe in the water and some other metal object, then these voltages are to be expected. The only way to confirm that this is a power-grid-related problem is to confirm that the voltage being measured is 60Hz AC. Need a good digital meter or an oscilloscope to do that.

As many mariners well know, dissimilar metals like bronze and stainless steel in salt water can produce enough potential to give a good tingle to a wet person.

I would also note that the improper use of UF cable instead of conduit to feed the pool, and the backwards installation of the GFCI for the pool cover (which apparently has a ground fault!) cannot possibly have anything to do with this stray voltage problem, which persists with the utility disconnected. Those problems should be fixed, but are red herrings here.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rnemt140 View Post
I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground.
What ground??? The dirt? Like you have been told, this will do NOTHING. You need to connect it to the equipotential bonding grid, if they even installed one.




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I would love to post some pictures for you all to see what I am dealing with as I am female and pictures make more sense to me to look at and get a whole feel for this situation...When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?
You need to host the pics on a site like Photobucket.com or Flikr.com, then reference the URL of the image.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:05 PM   #44
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rnemt140;468492]I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground.
Ground has nothing to do with this. You bond all elements able to carry current so they are of the same potential (no voltage difference between them). Even if there is voltage, since there is no difference of potential, there can be no current flow. That is why these guys can do this:







..
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When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?
you click on the little paperclip (in the panel above the post here) and upload the pictures you want to use. Then you have to attach them to the post.

Especially since the neutral and all power conductors were disconnected at one point during the testing, I would think it has to do with the POCO and their system and if so, the bonding is intended to remove just such a problem. It will create an equipotential plane throughout the entire pool area so even if the POCO is using their land as a return path, all of the bonding grid will be of the same potential and remove the possibility of a shock, until they touch a point within the grid and one outside of the grid. That is where the grid would need to be extended beyond any possible are this could happen. Might have to run a grid in the ground 6 feet outside of the pool area to overcome a POCO induced problem.

How close are any power company power lines, either overhead or underground, to this area.

The pool shell; what material? If there is a metal wall behind a liner, was the wall bonded to the steel in the concrete or were there provisions to allow the steel wall to be included in a bonding grid?

If it is a gunite, concrete, or shotcrete pool, was the reinforcing metal in the pool bonded to the bonding grid?





and you aren't getting reading from the water to dry concrete because dry concrete is not conductive.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:05 PM   #45
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We do have a light in the pool but even with no power possible to the house..we still have voltage....Can stray voltage run back up a ground rod through the light and into the pool???
There have been cases where people have been electrocuted because the pool light. People in the pool brush up against it and it is not grounded or loose. He needs to keep everyone out of that pool until he finds out what is going on.

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