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Old 03-30-2010, 09:10 PM   #61
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LB's can't be buried in the wall. They must remain accessible.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:11 PM   #62
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The best route you can do with this set up with new load centre is run the main conductors from bottom so that way it will keep it short as possible then you can able deal with smaller conduits that will be far much eaiser to deal with it otherwise you can run with MC { metal clad } cable that will work very well also.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:13 PM   #63
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Itsdanf.,

You can able run couple 90°'s without issue and just add a 20° kick it will work without need to use any LB fitting at all and it will work alot better this way.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:15 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
otherwise you can run with MC { metal clad } cable that will work very well also.

Merci,Marc
Now there's a good idea, if itsdanf can get a short piece of it.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:20 PM   #65
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Get sum 4/0 Al SE cable.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:23 PM   #66
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Thanks (and merci) for the ongoing advice and support!!

Here's the drawing I promised. Couldn't get the stud cavities to scale, but hopefully you can get the general idea.

The meter currently connects to the old panel with a nipple. My plan was to route the new 2/0 wire into the old panel (which I'm gutting and keeping as a junction box),then to the attic with EMT conduit, and from there to the new box.

Okay, I won't use LB's in closed-off walls (neither for this, nor for the sub-panel PVC conduit). I assume it's still okay to use in the attic if accessible.

I like the idea of 2/0 MC or 4/0 AL SEU, but will have to see availability (and cost). I'll check tomorrow.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:24 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdanf View Post
Distance would be approx 7' run. If I used SE, it would be routed through the studs, not around them.
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1. Squirrels apparently got into the attic and nested there, prior to my owning the house. That’s what caused all the damage to the foam board.

2. The horizontal run of the conduit will only be about 5.5 feet. I’m assuming you need two supports, regardless of length. There's only about 1.5 feet of open space before the conduit enters the "inbetween" area, so I can't access the exterior wall for the 2nd support without going through the foam board. That's one reason I considered option #1 from my previous post, since I could cut a small hole in the board, slip the wood in and secure it, then route the conduit through the hole -- minimal tearout of the foam board. Of course, I'd have to be very precise to make the EMT end up at the right panel position!
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Get sum 4/0 Al SE cable.


Brric.,

Look back to the OP's comment as I quoted in here and the total run is about 7 feet long so it is not very long run at all so if OP do make a EMT conduit and bend to the shape.
I can belive he should able get the conduit in the place and the tub { panel } centred in the stud cavity he should able hit the nail right on dead centre.

I have a feeling he {OP } may end up have two peices of EMT to get all together on this one depending on how sharp the kick it will be bend in there and as long he follow our directions there is no need to use the LB fitting at all { it will make heckva better to pull the conductors }

If I was near his place for sure I will swing by and give him a hand to deal with it.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:31 PM   #68
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Merci for the drawing here now I can able visuized it clear however I have one major question where you will run new conductors from meter socket to the new load centre due I know NEC code do not allow unfused and fused conductors in the same box at all { what I will be pointing to the gutted out load centre } so that something else you have to think about.

sorry to step on your toes but that do click on my mind .,,,,

Merci,Marc

P.s. how deep between the old tub and meter socket on that wall cavity ?? I may have a idea or duex.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:40 PM   #69
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heck, if you are keeping the old panel as a junction box,

a couple different ways and depending on the clearances with the studs, it may be easier one way or another.

1 method. out of the bottom of the new panel, the a kick (20º-30º) back into the all. Then a 90º bend towards the right (towards old panel). Then when you get above the old panel, 90º turn down. then an offset to bring the conduit to the face of the wall so it will enter the old panel.


are you understanding the kicks? what they are? what they do?


and to Marc point about fused and unfused conductors in the same box: I have never been dinged by an inspector for making my own dividers in a box. If you make a path straight up from where the nipple to the meter base is to the top of the old panel, and then make the new conduit enter the old panel at that point, you should be fine as long as you can effectively prevent intermingling of fused and unfused conductors.


and yes, I realize you do not happen to have a 555 bender laying around to bend this conduit. We will work on this one step at a time but we'll get you there.

how about a pic of the old panel so we can see how things are routed in there?

Last edited by nap; 03-30-2010 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:10 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Merci for the drawing here now I can able visuized it clear however I have one major question where you will run new conductors from meter socket to the new load centre due I know NEC code do not allow unfused and fused conductors in the same box at all { what I will be pointing to the gutted out load centre } so that something else you have to think about.

sorry to step on your toes but that do click on my mind .,,,,

Merci,Marc

P.s. how deep between the old tub and meter socket on that wall cavity ?? I may have a idea or duex.
Marc, you're not stepping on my toes -- but I feel sometimes like the NEC is stepping on my neck!

There's only about a 1-1.5 inch gap between the back of the panel and the brick wall; the external brick wall on the ground floor is thicker than the external stud wall above it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
heck, if you are keeping the old panel as a junction box,

a couple different ways and depending on the clearances with the studs, it may be easier one way or another.

1 method. out of the bottom of the new panel, the a kick (20º-30º) back into the all. Then a 90º bend towards the right (towards old panel). Then when you get above the old panel, 90º turn down. then an offset to bring the conduit to the face of the wall so it will enter the old panel.


are you understanding the kicks? what they are? what they do?


and to Marc point about fused and unfused conductors in the same box: I have never been dinged by an inspector for making my own dividers in a box. If you make a path straight up from where the nipple to the meter base is to the top of the old panel, and then make the new conduit enter the old panel at that point, you should be fine as long as you can effectively prevent intermingling of fused and unfused conductors.


and yes, I realize you do not happen to have a 555 bender laying around to bend this conduit. We will work on this one step at a time but we'll get you there.

how about a pic of the old panel so we can see how things are routed in there?
Photos attached. I was going to use the center-top cutout for the EMT. For the other conductors (for the 5 circuits entering from the bottom), I was going to route them through holes on the upper-right side.

I think I'm getting your suggested "kicks," but I'm more of a visual guy. I'll try to play with parts to get the picture. I'm not sure what a "555 bender" is, but I've seen large pipe benders near the EMT in a big box store recently. I can check it out more closely (maybe even find someone there who knows which one can handle 1.5" EMT -- maybe... ).

PS: Yes, those are dead wasps on the bottom of the panel. To add to my varied challenges, I have wasps entering the weather head and going down the mast into the meter box -- and even coming into the panel! Yet another thing to deal with.
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:35 PM   #71
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Here what Nap is refering the 555 bender look like;




As I speak in French we call them " C triplé " { cinq cinq cinq }

And this bender can have diffrent shoe size to work with other conduit size.

BTW some are electrique drive and some are hydruallique drive and some are manual { that only can go up to 1.5 inch emt otherwise ya will have heckva a time to bend it }

Now for wall gap I don't think it going to be festivable to do this but Nap have correct idea and now that will be little " fun " to deal topback loaders { that what I call them like that set up }

IIRC you can get 3X70mm² { 3X 2/0 AWG } copper MC cable otherwise you will need 3X95mm² { 3X 3/0 AWG } Alum MC cable overall length IMO best get 15 foot so you will have more than engouh to make the termation with MC's plus you will have to bring in new bonding conductors as well.

Now this is the example of the conduit kick as we electricians terms is so here the photo look like but it pretty big




Merci,Marc
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Here what Nap is refering the 555 bender look like;

<SNIP>


As I speak in French we call them " C triplé " { cinq cinq cinq }

And this bender can have diffrent shoe size to work with other conduit size.

BTW some are electrique drive and some are hydruallique drive and some are manual { that only can go up to 1.5 inch emt otherwise ya will have heckva a time to bend it }

Now for wall gap I don't think it going to be festivable to do this but Nap have correct idea and now that will be little " fun " to deal topback loaders { that what I call them like that set up }

IIRC you can get 3X70mm² { 3X 2/0 AWG } copper MC cable otherwise you will need 3X95mm² { 3X 3/0 AWG } Alum MC cable overall length IMO best get 15 foot so you will have more than engouh to make the termation with MC's plus you will have to bring in new bonding conductors as well.

Now this is the example of the conduit kick as we electricians terms is so here the photo look like but it pretty big

<SNIP>


Merci,Marc
Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender.

Merci for the drawing! I'm understanding the conduit kick concept better. As shown in the attached diagram (top view): A 90* elbow coming out the top of the new box, but angled to just clear the stud. Then a straight conduit bent on one end to straighten out the run; then bent at the other end to connect with another 90* turn down into the wall; then going straight down to the old panel. The trick will be to avoid going too deep into the cavity between the two walls. I might have to trim off some of the 90* pieces to make it all fit.

When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.

Thanks again, all of you, for the great guidance and suggestions!
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Last edited by Itsdanf; 03-31-2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:29 AM   #73
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Quote:
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Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender.
I have manual rachting bender for that size and it is pretty big beast at first but once you use it a bit it is not too bad and also I keep the C triplé with me also for larger conduit but for monster size conduit myself and other EC share this hydraullique bender that can bend much bigger conduits 4 inch is the largest I useally deal but from time to time I get monster 6 inches

Quote:
Merci for the drawing! I'm understanding the conduit kick concept better. As shown in the attached diagram (top view): A 90* elbow coming out the top of the new box, but angled to just clear the stud. Then a straight conduit bent on one end to straighten out the run; then bent at the other end to connect with another 90* turn down into the wall; then going straight down to the old panel. The trick will be to avoid going too deep into the cavity between the two walls. I might have to trim off some of the 90* pieces to make it all fit.
May I suggest the other idea with old panel run the conduit up a little then kick it out so that way you have straght section of EMT conduit going horzontal then bend 90° and kick it up toward to bottom of new load centre so that way you can keep the conduit run short as possible and with new load centre you can have it bottom feed so the guts in there is invertiable { can switch from top feed to bottom feed } as long you have horzontal main breaker handle but with vertical main breaker handle the bet is off unless you snag a bottom feed main breaker verison. { few case I can able swap it around }


Quote:
When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.

Thanks again, all of you, for the great guidance and suggestions!
Bon Chance { good luck } but as long as we say again keep the conduit run short as possible you may get lucky on this part and yeah I really recomoned get a fish tape as well so you can able pull the new conductors and get wire lube as well that will make it easier to pull in { yeah it will be little messy but it do wonders }

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:09 AM   #74
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Quote:
Itsdanf;422043]Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender.
Like in a hand bender?

nope. 1 1/4 is the largest hand bender I am aware of.



Quote:
When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.
hopefully you haven't cut it. If not, you will still be able to get 2 conductors out of the 36' and only have to buy enough for the 3rd conductor.

Never cut wire until you have the pipe installed and can measure the run. You would be surprised how much a kick here and there can add to the overall length.
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Old 03-31-2010, 09:56 AM   #75
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Challenge #1: Bending 1.5" EMT: Called around and verified there are no hand benders for 1.5". Rats. HOWEVER, the blue box guy suggested asking a muffler shop to bend it. Brilliant! Called a local muffler shop, and they said EMT's outside diameter might not fit their clamps perfectly, but for 20* it would probably work anyway. EMT's cheap enough to try! I'll try 20*, and if it doesn't work, buy another pipe and try a different angle.

Challenge #2: Length of 2/0 wire: I haven't cut it. I realized that I wouldn't know the real length until I knew the exact conduit run length. Worst case, I'll be buying another 15' or so, and selling 10' or so on craigslist. I have a Square-D Homeline 40/40 panel with a horizontal main shutoff (photo attached). It's 39" tall. Can I simply install the whole panel upside-down? That could save as much as 3 -5 feet of run!

Side note: While calling around, I asked about metalic-clad cable. Nope, not available.
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