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Old 03-22-2010, 12:02 AM   #16
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Hmmm, just when I thought I had the final plan!

I already removed the bookcase, but it would be easy enough to re-install -- and it will be easier to have it out if I'm going back to the original location.

I had my wife read all your suggestions, and we brainstormed a bit. She'd really like the bookcase back, but we don't want to run conduit/soffit outside of the existing drywall, because we need all the clearance space in the landing for moving furniture through the stairway.

I've currently got 25 circuits (including 8 20A, 8 15A, and nine @220V), plus a sub (three #1, plus a #6 ground); and I'll be adding 3-4 extra circuits (110V/20A). The service lines will be 2/0 for the 200A service.

Questions: Will I need multiple conduit runs for my wiring needs? What size condiuit(s)? Is it better to drill holes through the studs for the conduit(s), or cut notches with metal plates?
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Old 03-22-2010, 10:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdanf View Post

Questions: Will I need multiple conduit runs for my wiring needs? What size condiuit(s)? Is it better to drill holes through the studs for the conduit(s), or cut notches with metal plates?
most likely. Due to the distance being more than a nipple length, you will have to consider derating of the conductors when putting multiple circuits in a conduit.


I prefer to drill holes but in either case, if you remove too much of the stud (maybe kctermite can toss in a % figure or some means to determine "too much") you will have to install (and dang, I cannot remember what they are called) the structural stud brackets made that replace the structural strength you lose by boring too much from the stud.

since this is an outside wall and is surely a load bearing wall, this is an important consideration.
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Old 03-22-2010, 11:19 AM   #18
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These sections of the NY State building code may come in handy here. Verify with your locality, but at least it gives you a starting point:



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Old 03-22-2010, 02:55 PM   #19
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This info seems consistent with that from NY posted by secundo. See page 126. http://books.google.com/books?id=m6R...wiring&f=false

WARNING! THE BOOK TO WHICH I GAVE A LINK MAY BE SUBJECT TO A RECALL RELATED TO INCORRECT DIAGRAMS. It seems to be the same title and publisher of one of several recalled books, but the cover looks different. I don't know if this is a corrected revised edition or not. I did see where a reviewer said he received a notice from Amazon that his was recalled. I do not believe the particular page I sourced is one of the confusing diagrams which I believe concern the actual wiring of devices.

It also indicates that multiple holes should be bored above and not next to the other.

The picture from the NY code indicates that studs are to be doubled if holes are bored oversize up to a maximum of 60%. I saw some metal strips in the plumbing section of Lowes that may be what NAP was talking about.

Last edited by Klawman; 03-22-2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Recall Warning
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Old 03-22-2010, 04:32 PM   #20
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Thanks for the ongoing great feedback! I'll check locally, but it lookes like the NY standards are fairly consistent with other sources I've tried to find.

Key question: Is there any kind of wire that MUST be in a conduit? I figure that the service wires and sub wires do, particularly since they won't be jacketed. But I assume the remaining circuit wires are okay just being routed through many separate small stud holes, without conduit?
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Old 03-22-2010, 04:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdanf View Post
Key question: Is there any kind of wire that MUST be in a conduit? I figure that the service wires and sub wires do, particularly since they won't be jacketed. But I assume the remaining circuit wires are okay just being routed through many separate small stud holes, without conduit?
the NEC allows NM (Romex) cable but there are places such as Chicago and I think some places in the east that require conduit. I do not know of any other areas that require conduit generally BUT unless somebody here is familiar enough with your area to answer that question specifically for your area, I would suggest asking your local building department/electrical department for the correct answer.
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
the NEC allows NM (Romex) cable but there are places such as Chicago and I think some places in the east that require conduit. I do not know of any other areas that require conduit generally BUT unless somebody here is familiar enough with your area to answer that question specifically for your area, I would suggest asking your local building department/electrical department for the correct answer.
Thanks. I'll check locally.

Meanwhile, another issue: The wall between the stairway and my attic consists of (in order) drywall, plastic vapor barrier, stud wall with fiberglass bat insulation with paper backing on the outside (seems redundant), and rigid foam board with reflective silver surface on both faces. QUESTION: Any chance this is a fire rated wall that needs special handling? (Remember, I have no local inspectors to ask about this on-site).
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:05 PM   #23
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I don't think an exterior wall is generally considered or required to be a fire wall.

You might try PM'ing thekctermite and ask him though.


as to construction:

be sure the vapor barrier is sealed behind the panel and not around the panel when all is said and done. Try to retain as much glass insulation behind the panel as possible (outside of the plastic)

and for the life of me, I cannot find those stud braces I was talking about.
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:41 PM   #24
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This isn't what I was thinking of and I don't know what NAP is thinking of, but it can be used for stud repairs as well as to protect pipe. http://www.strong-tie.com/ftp/fliers...RPROTECT09.pdf

There is something from TEXAS at
http://www.willcoxinspections.com/im...tionreport.pdf
referencing the International Residential Code

602.6 Drilling and notching-studs.
Any stud in an exterior wall or bearing partition may be cut or notched to a depth not exceeding 25 percent of its width. Studs in nonbearing partitions may be notched to a depth not to exceed 40 percent of a single stud width. Any stud may be bored or drilled, provided that the diameter of the resulting hole is no greater than 40 percent of the stud width, the edge of the hole is no closer than 5/8 inch (15.9 mm) to the edge of the stud, and the hole is not located in the same section as a cut or notch. See Figures R602.6(1) and R602.6(2).
Exceptions:
1. A stud may be bored to a diameter not exceeding 60 percent of its width, provided that such studs located in exterior walls or bearing partitions are doubled and that not more than two successive studs are bored.
2. Approved stud shoes may be used when installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation.

Looks like you can double the studs or use approved stud shoes if you bore a hole over 40% of the stud width.

Last edited by Klawman; 03-22-2010 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Stud Shoe,Stud Repair
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klawman View Post
This isn't what I was thinking of and I don't know what NAP is thinking of, but it can be used for stud repairs as well as to protect pipe. http://www.strong-tie.com/ftp/fliers...RPROTECT09.pdf
yep, the guys around the black pipe.

I didn't read about this particular brand but there is a structural quality of device made that looks basically like that for when you have chewed a bit too much wood away.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:26 PM   #26
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Sorry I haven't been back to this thread in a while...

The exterior wall of your home is probably not a firewall unless:

-Your house is within a few feet of your neighbor's house or the property line...Depends on the code you're under but I think 3' is the magic number.
-Your house is a townhome or duplex/triplex
-Your house is a multi-level structure where you have neighbors above or below

If it is a single family residence in the middle of a lot and isn't crammed next to the neighbor's house, I can 100% assure you that you don't have a rated firewall.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:32 PM   #27
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Speaking to the no inspections issue, you might double check if you do in fact live in the City limits...From the way I read it a permit is in fact required. http://www.granbury.org/index.aspx?nid=67

From the way it reads, only contractors can obtain permits in Granbury. That sucks if it is true. Some cities aren't DIY friendly, and people that are as thorough and conscientious as yourself illustrate why they should be.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:24 PM   #28
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I'm obviously not that familiar with firewalls in a house -- probably because I've almost always lived in single-family residences with lots of space between houses, and never ahd to deal with them. Looks like I'm okay regarding that issue.

Nap, thanks, I'll definitely work on your suggestions regarding vapor barrier and insulation behind the panel. I was thinking of putting foam board insulation behind the panel, instead of just smooshing the batting (ran into a similar situation when repairing plumbing on an exterior wall...).

Klawman, thanks for the TX code reference and other info! If needed, I'll definitely be looking at shoes, since I don't want to remove enough drywall to double-up a stud.

Thanks for the kind comments, KC. I don't live inside the Granbury city limits (thank goodness). I've discovered that the no-inspection situation is both a blessing and a curse -- but that's a topic for another thread (probably in the off-topic section).
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:59 PM   #29
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Another issue: Grounding the new panel

The old panel is in a finished wall, so I canít see what the existing ground wire is connected to. I donít see it exiting the house to connect to a grounding rod, so Iím assuming itís connected to a water pipe.

Iím planning to install a new ground wire (#6 copper), route it to the outside and attach it to a new grounding rod (8ft). I also plan to run a #6 copper wire to the original panel location and connect to the original ground wire, to assure any existing ground connections (e.g., to plumbing, A/C, etc.) are still maintained.

Questions: Are there any potential problems with this approach? Itís okay to use uninsulated copper wire for these grounding connections, right? Is #6 the right size (max length run will be under 13í)?
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:29 PM   #30
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A #6 bare or insulated wire is the max size required when connecting to a "made" electrode, such as a ground rod(s).
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