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Old 04-16-2014, 11:53 AM   #16
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Why is new service required for a 100A load on a 200A panel?

I find it hard to believe I could load it even to 80% worst case.
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Cutting a meter tag in NYS IS a big deal. And yes, most POCOs will require an inspection on any work done before reconnection.

Also, NYS is on the 2011 NEC, NOT the 2005.
I thought New York was still on 2008 and the city was on 2011. Could be wrong though, Have not been in the game for a while.

Anyway, on my end of the state the poco does indeed frown on cut tags. If you want to do a panel change, you need to get a fire underwriters inspection before the power company (National Grid) will do the change over/hookup
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:07 PM   #18
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The only way to know, is to do a load calculation.
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Old 04-16-2014, 02:36 PM   #19
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I'd love to know the size of the xfmr feeding the home. The 27kW is a lot for one home. I've seen 15KVA dist xmfrs feed several houses. Yes, I know they are typically rated to 200% but, I'm sure the load calc that the PoCo does for Peak Summer probably exceeds 100% already. In addition, I doubt the service wire from the xfmr to the house will support the additional 27kW.

I wonder what happens in the Summer when someone is taking a hot shower with the AC on, trying to dry a load of clothes, and keep the groceries cool. Hopefully, nobody is in the kitchen trying to cook dinner.

Pulling the meter won't be a big deal until something goes wrong. Then the lawyers will bring out the fact that you're not an electrician and inexperienced. If you've never pulled a meter or put one back in then you should leave that for someone who has done many of them. There is a proper technique for putting the meter back......its not just cram it in.

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Old 04-16-2014, 02:55 PM   #20
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There is no way an untrained person without PPE should be even thinking about pulling a meter or making a panel change while it is hot.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:08 PM   #21
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There is no way an untrained person without PPE should be even thinking about pulling a meter or making a panel change while it is hot.
Totally agree!
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:46 PM   #22
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This thread isn't doing a whole lot to resolve my questions.
You must be new to the internet then.
You cannot expect to ask a convoluted question such as your original post and not expect a load of opinion posts. That's just how it is.


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If cutting the tag is that big of a deal, it's entirely possible to switch a panel out with the mains live.
Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? NO WAY!! Especially by a non-professional.


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Realistically, the main panel concerns are low on my priority list. I'm not asking if I should install a tankless electric water heater, I'm asking how it should be done.
Tankless water heaters are a classically contentious issue. You're gonna get more opinion than advice on an issue such as this.


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Let's say I do want the panel changed. I'm still wondering at what point it's required for the electrical to be brought up to current code. This 'inspection' the power company wants, what are they inspecting? The whole house, the work done, do they pull every switch and outlet cover? Cut holes in the wall to inspect? Can be still be 40-50 year old code, or does it need to be current?
ONLY the work performed needs to be inspected. They cannot go looking around your house to find old things. If you do a panel change they look at the panel. If you do a service upgrade the look at the whole service, but just the service.



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Everyone says bringing it up to code is stilly, so I assume that means it never really 'needs' to be done? If that's the case, why is the inspection a big deal? I'm really looking for experience, not assumptions.
See previous quote. The only thing that needs to be brought to current code is any new work you do.


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Why is a 100A load a big problem for 200A service? What's taking 100A in the house while the water heater is running? It's not like the heater is going to run all day. It really just sounds like nobody has any experience with a tankless electric heater.
Seriously? You think everyone here, including many professionals, are talking out their asses as opposed to speaking from experience? That's pretty presumptive.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:00 PM   #23
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The fridge is an inverter type with active PFC, consumes <0.4KVA. Gas range and dryer. Really the only major loads aside from whatever I plug into an outlet is going to be the water heater and the A/C. Lighting is absolutely trivial with quality LED bulbs with good PFC.

I know an electrician I can probably buy with some cold brews, but he is just going to snip the tag and pull the meter in a tee shirt. Presumably with the main breaker tripped, things are unlikely to get too out of hand. It sure makes things a lot easier if the mains are dead, so I would certainly avoid doing it live. Cutting, stripping, or applying noalox as required sounds a little on the sketchy side with live conductors of that size.

If the transformer blows as a result of me intermittently using my service at half its rated capacity, it's really not my problem. I can run mostly on solar until its fixed anyways. I suppose the real problem there is knowing when the service is restored since the mains would have to be tripped. And of course this would mean no hot water.

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Old 04-16-2014, 04:16 PM   #24
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You must be new to the internet then.
You cannot expect to ask a convoluted question such as your original post and not expect a load of opinion posts. That's just how it is.
Opinions are more or less what I'm looking for. I had hoped these opinions would be more clearly backed with experience. For example, someone claiming they know an individual that installed a high power whole home electric tankless and the issues that resulted. I'm installing an electric tankless. If that ends up being an issue, I will install a gas tank heater. I don't think thats big deal.

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Seriously? You think everyone here, including many professionals, are talking out their asses as opposed to speaking from experience? That's pretty presumptive.
Is the problem tripping the main breaker, or the service going up in flames?

If the house draws more than 1kW aside from the A/C, it would be a lot. I don't know the consumption of the A/C, but it's on a 30A double pole, so it can't be so bad. I'm just having a hard time determining where everyone says this 200A service crippling load is going to show up. It's unlikely the water heater would even be fully loaded. That would most likely mean the outlet temp is not at the target, which would generally mean warm showers which most people find unacceptable and would not continue. The worst 'average' case would be a single shower and a dishwasher , clothes washer, or some other intermittent automated water load. Likely closer to the 15kW range.

Last edited by Frank_Grimes; 04-16-2014 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:28 PM   #25
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If you are sure of your loads then you should be OK. Depends on the size of the house and the intended usage, like how many people. Just don't expect anything in the way of expansion later, like a shop, hot tub, more A/C, etc.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:42 PM   #26
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I haven't heard of that fridge type other than the college size or smaller fridges. Got a model# or link?

240VAC x 30A = 7200 va....thats a good size load. Perhaps the A/C load is a bit smaller than that.

For me, I have a tough time understanding how you could lift out the incoming cables on the meter side of the main breaker while hot. Those cables are stout. An accidental touch of the hot cable to the panel and I just don't see what would save you. That certainly won't be a moderate spark. Its not a matter of if but, when. Nobody ever plans to be in an accident. If your mentality is that "you'll be extra careful" or "because your an EE" then you're in the wrong frame of mind.

I'm also an EE w/ 20 years experience in the power industry (protection and control).

Get your friend that has the proper PPE to help you out. You can learn quite a bit from someone who is experienced for the cost of a couple of beers.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:24 PM   #27
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It's an LG, not sure of the model. They call it a 'Linear Inverter Compressor'. The startup current is roughly the same as running.

The A/C is on a 30A breaker. I don't know a thing about it past that. Never used it and I didn't move into the house yet. It's a fairly small unit.

I regularly deal with 400VDC battery banks capable of delivering many thousands of amps. DC is really nasty stuff compared to AC. I understand 240VAC is not quite something to shake a stick at, especially when its capable of delivering likely thousands of amps into a fault. I've just dealt with much worse situations without fuss.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:53 PM   #28
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A combo AFCI has nothing to do with a GFCI.
A combo AFCI (CAFCI) detects series arcs that the original branch/feeder AFCI would not.
Well, I did admit I didn't know a lot about them. Now, I know more. Thanks.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:00 PM   #29
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A combo AFCI has nothing to do with a GFCI.
A combo AFCI (CAFCI) detects series arcs that the original branch/feeder AFCI would not.
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Well, I did admit I didn't know a lot about them. Now, I know more. Thanks.
Gentlemen... I am a DF GC.... and I'm enjoying your arguments, albeit some/much are over my head in comprehension.

Not to derail.... but could anyone explain the difference in AFCI's between a combo and an original.... I have no idea what a series arc is verse verse a branch/feeder arc.

TIA


(And Frank, just as a comment, it seems your argument is that code (load calculation) should not apply as you have intuitively (as a legit EE) estimated that your application will not exceed your VA/or A capacity.

It seems to me that you might be entirely correct, but potentially out of code in regard to our legislated requirements...??.

Also, I don't know if anyone wants to explain to me the "proper safety" procedures with pulling a meter as was talked about above, (I've probably pulled at least 3-4 dozen as a GC)...

but I just make sure there is no load, I do wear glasses and leather, and carefully align the jaws, and plug it in. (I do know I'm playing with a chit load of A and 240V).

TIA again

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Old 04-16-2014, 08:08 PM   #30
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Someone can search arc fault blast to see graphic results of a fault where the temperature melts metal, let alone what the concussive wave does to someone standing in front of the arc. As Clint Eastwood says " do you feel lucky?"
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