Need More Than 200 AMP Residential Service - Electrical - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Like Tree14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Old 08-02-2019, 02:11 AM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 2
Default

Need more than 200 AMP residential service


We are building a new house in Edmonton, Canada, and my builder has advised me the electrical load calculation is already at 192.5 amps, and that's without a couple electric deck heaters (2x25A) and an electric vehicle charger (40-60A) I was hoping to install. See the list below. The trench from the back lane is still exposed (service going to detached garage, then underground to the house).

I was advised the only solution is to go with 400amp service from our municipal electrical provider (Epcor), which requires a separate electrical/transformer "room", special permits and wiring, and the associated additional costs will be tens of thousands of dollars ($40,000).

Is there NO other way to supply more than 200 amps to a single dwelling home, and still pass an inspection? I know you can "add on" electrical items later (ex. outdoor patio heaters), after the house is built, without pulling a permit. However, if I have a fire, I don't want my insurance company saying insurance is void because something was done without a permit.

It seems silly that the municipal inspection code requires less than 200 amps with everything running at once. That would never happen in reality !

LOAD CALC:
Based on the square footage there is a basic house demand of 11000 watts = 46 amps
Steam shower load of 13000 watts = 54 amps
Air conditioning load assumed = 40 amps
Floor heat mat load assumed = 8 amps
Induction range load of 12000 watts with demand factor applied = 25 amps
Dryer 30 amps at %25 = 7.5 amps
Oven 6700 watts = 28 amps at %25 = 7 amps
Steam oven 20 amps at %25 = 5 amps

Total = 192.5 amps
ss_blake is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-02-2019, 06:21 AM   #2
MarginallyQualified
 
TarheelTerp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Winston-Salem NC
Posts: 4,896
Rewards Points: 4,470
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by ss_blake View Post

I was advised the only solution is to go with 400amp service...
How about building 25% less house?
Or eliminating 50% of the gee-gaws?
TarheelTerp is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-02-2019, 07:03 AM   #3
retired framer
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 30,514
Rewards Points: 4,682
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


How much of that could be changed to nat gas?


Run a separate meter to the garage??
__________________
Do not use flat bottom gables with scissor trusses.

Last edited by Nealtw; 08-02-2019 at 07:07 AM.
Nealtw is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-02-2019, 07:04 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Livonia, Michigan
Posts: 375
Rewards Points: 750
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by TarheelTerp View Post
How about building 25% less house?
Or eliminating 50% of the gee-gaws?

Exactly! Why in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you need a steam shower, steam oven, induction range, etc. And can't you use gas-fired appliances (dryer, range, water heater, etc.)? Use your electrical power for items you actually NEED and are not available as gas-fired. You'll be "shocked" at all the amperage you will save!
BluegrassGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 07:13 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 4,062
Rewards Points: 52
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


I think my cataracts are getting worse each day. I cannot find in the OP where the owner stated his residence had a gas service to his home ?

Canada must have some stringent utility laws. I installed twin 150 amp breaker box services on homes wherever I found the need for 30 years in my state here in the USA, and the POCO did not blink an eye.
keep_hope_alive likes this.
__________________
...

Last edited by Gregsoldtruck79; 08-02-2019 at 07:17 AM.
Gregsoldtruck79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 08:53 AM   #6
Acoustics & Electrical
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Quad Cities, IL
Posts: 82
Rewards Points: 134
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


NEC lets you apply demand for sizing.
Connected load should never occur under normal conditions. Coincident loads vs. Non-coincident load should be considered - i.e. A/C and elec heat. Modern devices are so energy efficient now, receptacle loads have plummeted.

Start applying demand to the load calcs and you should get back in range.

And don't turn everything up to 11 simultaneously.
keep_hope_alive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 08:57 AM   #7
Acoustics & Electrical
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Quad Cities, IL
Posts: 82
Rewards Points: 134
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregsoldtruck79 View Post
I think my cataracts are getting worse each day. I cannot find in the OP where the owner stated his residence had a gas service to his home ?

Canada must have some stringent utility laws. I installed twin 150 amp breaker box services on homes wherever I found the need for 30 years in my state here in the USA, and the POCO did not blink an eye.
I would assume gas is present since i didn't see an elec furnace or elec water heater (for house, not shower)..
keep_hope_alive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 09:24 AM   #8
Electrical Contractor
 
jbfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Newnan GA
Posts: 8,324
Rewards Points: 6,268
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive View Post
NEC lets you apply demand for sizing.
Connected load should never occur under normal conditions. Coincident loads vs. Non-coincident load should be considered - i.e. A/C and elec heat. Modern devices are so energy efficient now, receptacle loads have plummeted.

Start applying demand to the load calcs and you should get back in range.

And don't turn everything up to 11 simultaneously.
Too bad he is not under the NEC!

He is from Canada.
keep_hope_alive likes this.
__________________
Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late
The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder
I'm an over-forty victim of fate.
jbfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 09:37 AM   #9
Super Moderator
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 19,413
Rewards Points: 30,152
Blog Entries: 11
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Who advised you? The builder or EPCOR. I have never heard of a transformer room for a residential property.

I was just looking at their 'customer connection guide' and services over 100 amp by special permission only. 200 amp is the standard home service now and you need special permission.
joed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 10:10 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Kremmling, CO about 7500'
Posts: 1,440
Rewards Points: 852
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


In the US, you can get separate feeds so that you can have multiple panels. @HandyAndyInNC has 4 panels (200 or 400 amp each)

Can't you just get 2 150 amp panels? Or, have a sub-panel run to the garage? I can't believe they want you to get your own transformer, much less one inside your house.

From a former border neighbor
__________________
The only stupid question is the one you DON'T ask!

ktownskier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 10:31 AM   #11
Deleted Member
 
Shadow99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 515
Rewards Points: 1,030
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by ss_blake View Post
We are building a new house in Edmonton, Canada, and my builder has advised me the electrical load calculation is already at 192.5 amps, and that's without a couple electric deck heaters (2x25A) and an electric vehicle charger (40-60A) I was hoping to install. See the list below. The trench from the back lane is still exposed (service going to detached garage, then underground to the house).

I was advised the only solution is to go with 400amp service from our municipal electrical provider (Epcor), which requires a separate electrical/transformer "room", special permits and wiring, and the associated additional costs will be tens of thousands of dollars ($40,000).
As others mentioned, if you have gas (or a large propane tank), use that wherever you can. You'll be saving on energy costs as well.

There are load shedding units that can bring the load down. ie, shut of the EV charger when the steam shower is on. Or only allow certain loads if below a certain amperage. Talk to your electrician about these.

Epcor probably has to install a new transformer, and upgrade wiring to accommodate the 400A. These costs are usually passed on to the customer.
keep_hope_alive likes this.
Shadow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 12:31 PM   #12
Acoustics & Electrical
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Quad Cities, IL
Posts: 82
Rewards Points: 134
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
Too bad he is not under the NEC!



He is from Canada.
Doh! There aren't demand calcs in Canada?
keep_hope_alive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 03:53 PM   #13
MarginallyQualified
 
TarheelTerp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Winston-Salem NC
Posts: 4,896
Rewards Points: 4,470
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive View Post
Doh! There aren't demand calcs in Canada?
Yeah, but they're all metric.
keep_hope_alive likes this.
TarheelTerp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 05:57 PM   #14
Deleted Member
 
Shadow99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 515
Rewards Points: 1,030
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


Quote:
Originally Posted by TarheelTerp View Post
Yeah, but they're all metric.
Our metric Amps are bigger than your Amps

Load calc seems to be done already. Many loads shown are at 25%, and fixed loads need to be at 100%

One thing that is missed, is generally AC and any heating loads are considered separate. ie, you don't generally use the AC and heat at the same time, so you just count the higher of the 2. Might save the OP a few amps (metric Amps ! )

Given the sq ft load, I'm thinking this is around a 4500 sq ft home !

Last edited by Shadow99; 08-02-2019 at 06:00 PM.
Shadow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2019, 06:39 PM   #15
Member
 
CodeMatters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,683
Rewards Points: 7,360
Default

Re: Need more than 200 AMP residential service


My numbers (based on 8-200) suggest the home is between 5812 and
6781 sq ft. No surprise that a 400A service is required unless measures
are taken to reduce the load. Load shedding for the EV charger is a good
idea @Shadow99 .

Attempting to apply NEC rules is silly. For example, 6-102 restricts number
of services to one (with exceptions of course, but I doubt they apply).


@keep_hope_alive 's observation regarding a lack of heat loads (water and
otherwise) is a good one.
Shadow99 likes this.
CodeMatters is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Top of Page | View New Posts