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Old 04-21-2010, 09:51 PM   #16
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One of the reasons you got by for all those years, the circuit were never loaded to full capicity.
What brand of panel do you have?
In 1983, the code did not reguire breaker ties oe 2 pole breakers on a mwbc, unless wired to the same device.
That is if you broke the hot tab on a receptacle and feed it with a mwbc.
The breaker ties/2 pole breaker did not become a code rule until 2005, or 2008.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:59 PM   #17
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You're right about the circuits not be loaded to capacity. For many years, homes just didn't have the electronics that draw so many amps when operating. On top of that, every 240V circuit comes from the main panel outside by the meter. There is just 120V circuits inside at the sub-panel.

It looks like its done professionally, but there is no real order to the breakers. You have some circuits fed by #3 and #10. The #10 breaker is what I think are called tandem breakers. I think their like AABBAABB as you go down the panel. #3 is just a standard single pole.

I'm just glad I found it now before I start adding circuits. This week I ran a home run of 12-2 for new garage lights I'm putting in and I thought something wasn't right.

Last edited by BPC; 04-21-2010 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:19 PM   #18
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BPC,
Do your C/B's resemble this one?
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Multi Wire Circuit Question-cb-tandem-square-d-1515.jpg  
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:45 PM   #19
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No, they look like you took a standard single pole (full size) breaker and sliced it in half. You can remove them individually if you want. They have a different arrangement where they attach to the hot legs of the bus. On the top of the panel, if you go down either row, there are 4 full size breaker slots, GE type TQHL1120 I think and then the smaller 20A breakers I spoke about in the beginning. The panel is designed so you can't put the smaller tandem breakers in the upper four positions in the panel and vise versa, because I assume the designers did not want someone to be able to overload the panel.

I was just looking at the wiring diagram of the main panel and it looks like the slot where the 70A double pole breaker that feeds the sub-panel is just on the A leg (far left) of the panel. It looks the same as the diagram on the sub panel where the smaller tandem breakers reside and they are wired AABBAABB ect. What do you think?

Last edited by BPC; 04-21-2010 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:32 AM   #20
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I am not familiar with GE Breakers but if you can resize some pics, it will be a big help.

Here is a short cut to how I resize pics:


How to downsize a photo for a POST (MS Windows computer)

1) Install the Photo Viewer ‘Irfanview’ free download
http://www.irfanview.com/



2) Once you get the Irfanview Icon on your desktop, then



3)
File> Open (load the file you want to downsize)


4) The Photo will appear in the viewer



5) The lower LH corner of the photo will display the size in pixels and in KB or for very large photos in MB.

The goal is to get the size down to less than 100K to post on the Forum


6)
Image>Resize/Resample


7) Select New Size


8) Set Width to 600


9) Click
OK


The Image should resize
Save resized image under a new file name
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:09 AM   #21
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Another way to resize a picture (Does not work on all computers; failure might not show up until step 8 in some cases).

1. View the picture on your computer, sizing it so you can see the whole picture on your screen.

2. Press the Prt-Scrn button.

3. Start the Paint program.

4. In Paint, do Edit, Paste.

5. Move the mouse pointer to the middle of the Paint window, hold the mouse button down, and line up the picture with the upper left corner. (May take more than one try.)

6. Scroll the Paint window contents to the lower right corner inside the Paint window and look for a tiny but noticeable dot in the lower right corner.

7. Point to the dot; the mouse pointer should turn into a double headed arrow. Hold the mouse button and move the dot up to the left to line up with the actual lower right of the picture. (May take more than one try.)

8. Save the picture, specifying JPG format.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
2. Press the Prt-Scrn button...
This step works better if modified with the 'Alt' key
e.g. Press Alt and the Prt-Scrn button
reason: Only the selected window image, not the desktop gets saved

Paint and Irfanview are my two favorite programs

Actually I use a little different procedure with Irfanview
by using File>Save for Web
but this method does not always get the image <100k on the first try

The resize to 600 method I posted, has always worked for me, first time

Note I used Irfanview to annotate by adding text, and then adding a border on the Square-D photo above
.
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Last edited by PaliBob; 04-22-2010 at 11:27 AM. Reason: added note
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:40 PM   #23
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Perhaps this will help with the GE breakers and how they are configured in the panel. If you are measuring 0 volts between the red and black wires that are from the same 12/3 with ground cable then the single pole breakers are not on opposite legs. This can as JBfan mentioned cause too many amps to flow on the neutral if the circuits are carrying enough load to exceed the ampacity rating for 12 awg.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:27 PM   #24
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Thanks again stubbie (poster #23) for elaborating something that electricians would understand in a second. What's amazing is that the (original) wiring in the OP's house was done by a "professional" electrician. I've done some installations for 240v. in such manner. (NO. not the wrong way) (Not too many. Because you should really use a full size 2-pole breaker.) But when you do such an install, you must position it right. But, the OP claimed that at no point did he read 240v. on ANY 2 breakers. That is puzzling!!
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:29 PM   #25
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I'd start looking for a load panel wiring diagram/layout/drawings from the manuf., to reduce the number of unknowns in this problem.
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