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Old 06-07-2009, 12:46 PM   #1
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Kitchen Wiring Questions


I'm redoing my galley kitchen (early 60s). (Not planning for garbage disposal or dedicated microwave.)

Existing wiring included dedicated lines for DW & fridge so these are OK.

Wire for gas cooktop is existing (formerly for controls on gas range), but is on a shared circuit with at least 2 wall plugs & one light.

Hoodfan is also on a shared circuit with wall plugs.

Added;
-dedicated 40a/220 for new wall oven.
-2 new 20a GFI circuits--one on each side for new wall plugs.

I wanted to add a 15a circuit and put 1 75w downlight, 1 100w alcove light, and a switched plug (for undercounter lights) all on one switch for one side, and a second switched plug for u/c lights on the other side.

Q1: Is this a reasonable combination, & what would the schematic look like?

Q2: Should I redirect the cooktop or the hoodfan to this circuit--if so, which one? Or should I add a second 15a and combine hoodfan and cooktop?

(Not too much room in the breaker box)
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:43 PM   #2
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Outlets need to be on a 20 amp circuit. Better to directly wire the undercounter lights into a 15 amp circuit then use a switched outlet.
The cooktop electric consumption is relegated to a sparrk for the gas ignition so you can leave it sharing the other circuit.
What is the fan rating? That would determine how you wire it.
If you need to, add a subpanel to give you some breathing room for any future electric to be done. In the average kitchen I do, we add about 10 circuits to upgrade for current and future uses.
I installed a subpanel in the kitchen pantry for all the electric in that room. It was easier then running all the wiring back to the main panel.
Ron
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Old 06-07-2009, 07:30 PM   #3
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Hoodfan is also on a shared circuit with wall plugs. Leave it

Added;
-dedicated 40a/220 for new wall oven. Use #8, 4 wire cable.
-2 new 20a GFI circuits--one on each side for new wall plugs. Good

I wanted to add a 15a circuit and put 1 75w downlight, 1 100w alcove light, and a switched plug (for undercounter lights) all on one switch for one side, and a second switched plug for u/c lights on the other side. Put the switched receps in or above the cabinets to avoid them being classified as Small Appliance receps (20 amp with nothing else on the circuit other than refer or gas range receps)

Q1: Is this a reasonable combination, & what would the schematic look like? Yes & go from the panel to the closest device box, then jump to the next and so on.

Q2: Should I redirect the cooktop or the hoodfan to this circuit--if so, which one? Or should I add a second 15a and combine hoodfan and cooktop? Cooktop 120V recep can be on with the kitchen ctop receps. Keep the hood where it was IF it's hardwired. If it's plugged in, here they are requiring a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

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Old 06-07-2009, 07:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paredown View Post
Wire for gas cooktop is existing (formerly for controls on gas range), but is on a shared circuit with at least 2 wall plugs & one light.

Hoodfan is also on a shared circuit with wall plugs.

Added;
-dedicated 40a/220 for new wall oven.
-2 new 20a GFI circuits--one on each side for new wall plugs.

I wanted to add a 15a circuit and put 1 75w downlight, 1 100w alcove light, and a switched plug (for undercounter lights) all on one switch for one side, and a second switched plug for u/c lights on the other side.

Q1: Is this a reasonable combination, & what would the schematic look like?

Q2: Should I redirect the cooktop or the hoodfan to this circuit--if so, which one? Or should I add a second 15a and combine hoodfan and cooktop?
Our counter top MC is rated at 1100 watts
We will actually have (3) kitchen 20a counter top circuits
Are you adding 2 new circuits in addition to the existing one (hoodfan) ?

I did the same with my undercabinet lighting. The outlet was above the cabinets. Adding another lighting circuit for only 2 lights is a bit much, is there another lighting circuit you can tap off of? Or do you need to add more lights elsewhere?

What is your main panel circuit breaker?
I agree on adding a sub-panel if you are running out of room
We have a 200a panel & one of the 1st things I did was add a 100a panel 3' to the left



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Old 06-08-2009, 04:41 AM   #5
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Thanks for the responses. I got the sense when I started that everyone is just demanding a dedicated circuit for their bit of the kitchen, which makes it hard for remodellers.

Neither tapping into the existing light circuits is feasible (wired up through the post & beam structure), nor is adding a subpanel, since the existing wiring is already a 200a main going to 2 subs with very long runs into the house. Hence the "solution" to work with what is here as much as possible.

1. 8/4 on the wall oven circuit:

If the wall oven is direct wired (not plugged), does it need to be 8/4? Or can it be 8/3 if it is going to an older panel?

The reason why I ask, is this is a 40+ year old setup and the two subpanels are wired with 3 wires only--no separate ground. So the old dryer circuit was 3 wire as was the old electric stove circuit.

2. Put the switched receps in or above the cabinets:

Have the switched plug for one side on the "ceiling" of an alcove; planned the other side to sit inside cabinet.

I would have done as Ron6159 suggested and hardwired the u/c lights--but I couldn't find any that had decent small head connectors that could be pulled through cabinets...

Did I understand correctly that so long as these switched plugs are not considered a "small appliance" circuit they can be on a 15a & combined lights and plugs as I had planned?

3. Vent hood:
Bosch DAH9466UC, hard wired--manual does not give draw, but has 2 50w halogen and blower motor. Manual says "15a branch circuit"--says dedicated only required for "remote blower" which I don't have. It is currently on a shared circuit with other wall plugs not the counter top plugs.

Should I move or leave as is?

On last small question--to pull wire into the cabinet for my second plug, does this need to be BX or will NM be OK?

I really appreciate the help--and in fact you've helped me catch one error as I've been rechecking--the electrical supply company shipped me 10/3 instead of the 8/3 I ordered so that will be this morning's problem.

Cheers

Last edited by paredown; 06-08-2009 at 07:52 AM. Reason: add details
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:59 PM   #6
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Usually on new electric you have to meet current code
Which means 8-4 as far as I know

As long as you have (2) 20a small kitchen appliance circuits serving the countertops you can have more - even if they are 15a



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Old 06-08-2009, 09:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
the two subpanels are wired with 3 wires only--no separate ground.

Doesn't make sense in this case but code says new circuits need to be 4 wire.


8/3 with ground = 4 wire circuit.



Quote:
Did I understand correctly that so long as these switched plugs are not considered a "small appliance" circuit they can be on a 15a & combined lights and plugs as I had planned?

yes


Quote:
Should I move or leave as is?

toss a coin.

Quote:
wire into the cabinet for my second plug, does this need to be BX or will NM be OK?
Depends on how exposed it is. I usually run NM because it's easier to work with. If it's exposed part way, I sleeve it in flex.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:49 AM   #8
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I have an electrician coming on Friday to review the whole setup.

It sounds as though I could run a #6 Green from the inside main panel to each of the subpanels and unbond ground and common in each--but they are old-style Pushmatics with not much room even to mount a grounding bar.

I'd planned to move the inside main anyways (& likely replace) for remodeling reasons, so I'll start there & think the whole system through...

Thanks guys for the clarifications...

Dean
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paredown View Post
I'd planned to move the inside main anyways (& likely replace) for remodeling reasons, so I'll start there & think the whole system through...
If you are taking the wall covering off, now is the time to replace all those ungrounded circuits.

Considering you have pushmatics and all, I'd seriously consider redoing everything 100%.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:59 AM   #10
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The draw for the motor on your range hood is 4.4A + the halogens, just to help your capacity planning.

(Don't ask why I look this sorta thing up. I'm all sorts of bored ).

I'd put the cooktop and the hood on a circuit all by themselves, or maybe on the lighting circuit (seems lightly loaded). I generally don't like appliances on my receptacle circuits even if they're low draw. In case someone plugs in a 12A vacuum or something... But don't listen to me -- you don't want to know how many circuits I put in my kitchen.

Nice looking hood, BTW.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:32 PM   #11
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No all the wall circuits are "grounded"--old style bx and the sheath works as ground--this is true all the way back to the main--just no separation of ground and common for the 220 circuits in the 2 subpanels.

As I understand it, the new requirements demand a separate ground wire to be either in the conduit with the rest of the wires or part of the wire when installing subpanels--ie 6-3 using the 4th wire as a separate ground. Then you can only bond common and ground at the service entrance main panel.

As far as Pushmatics--it depends on who you talk to--the good part is the positive connection on the bus bar, the bad news is that you can't always tell if it has popped to reset. Not all bad though...

Last edited by paredown; 06-09-2009 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:39 PM   #12
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Well the electrician is as nice a guy as you'll ever meet, & he gave incredibly helpful advice in the hour he spent (and not on the clock!!)

His main suggestion--get a homeowner's permit (and the County requires the homeowner to pass a basic test) and then work with a good inspector (apparently this is privatized in NY)--and then I'm likely to get cut some slack, seeing as I'm making a good-faith effort to bring as much of the wiring up to current code as we can afford to do right now.

He seconded you guys' approval for the basic logic for the kitchen and first bath.

His suggested compromise for the wall oven ground problem would be to unbond ground and common in the subpanel by adding a grounding block, and then add a grounding connector--these are the collars/clamps that have a place to connect a ground wire directly to them--where the subpanel feeds come back to the main panel, and make a direct connection to the grounding block in that main panel.

And he's got me started on collecting the parts to replace the Pushmatic main with something that's up to snuff (ordered a Cutler Hammer)--and since I'm relocating the laundry, the other current 4 wire/220v requirement for the dryer will be right next to a new panel with a proper grounding bar.

Worse case may be having to pull new service like the oven all the way to the new panel--this house is a crazy long flat "L"--has to be over 110ft from where we're planning for the A/C--hope I don't have to pull that long of a heavy wire in the crawl!!!

So its now a multi front war--walls are all open where the main will be relocated, I've killed three surplus circuits on the old main in preparation for its move & have two more light/plug circuits to figure out how to salvage. Physically it looks do-able--both the service feed and the two subpanel feeds should be redirectable and long enough, although there will be some serious drilling and cursing before its done.

Last edited by paredown; 06-13-2009 at 05:30 PM. Reason: ranting
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Old 06-13-2009, 05:28 PM   #13
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Well they are definitely raising my hackles!!!!


I just found out that the County Homeowner's Permit test that is required is only offered once a month, I've just missed it, & they ding you $125 for the privilege.

Since they require that you get it inspected by a NY licensed inspector before during and after (this is privatized in NY you will be paying for the privilege of that as well--a la carte on top of the local town permit, no less)--what's the point of the exam?

Since there is no fixing stupid, people who don't know any better will just find other ways to destroy their houses.

Whose convenience does it serve? Certainly not the homeowner, who in theory is the employer of the county officials. Seems like a system designed to encourage non-compliance.

What next--a competency test before you can buy a house?????

In theory I'm already way over the line since I've (gasp, horror of horrors) actually had the main service open, disconnected wires, moved a couple of plugs etc.

I remember my dad wiring our finished basement in the '60s--went down to the city hall, got a permit, read up on the code, had it inspected, fixed a couple of mistakes--all for the cost of one permit, and that was that.

When did we become such a nation of namby-pambies???

Last edited by paredown; 06-13-2009 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 06-13-2009, 05:40 PM   #14
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One problem is that people do not perform work correctly
Thus the inspections & regulations
But if they are too strict or too much red tape people will do the work without permits or inspections
Its not really namby-pamby, it's more not wanting your neighbor doing something 1/2 arsed that will burn his house down & yours too
Then there is the fact that many houses change hands many times
So it's trying to protect the work/house long term



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Old 06-13-2009, 05:59 PM   #15
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No objection to inspections before, during and after, but an exam for a homeowner for the privilege of applying for a permit?

Drawing up the plan to get the permit should be adequate to see failures of logic.

Idiots will still find a way to destroy their houses & their neighbors as well.

Update: I've been musing over this & have decided that homeowners are simply collateral damage in our County's war against unlicensed tradespeople--we have the most restrictive (and expensive) requirements for licensing & they wanted to prevent homeowners from getting the permits & hiring unlicensed contractors on the side, so they needed to make it really annoying, time consuming and not inexpensive for homeowners to do so. Reading the licensing act--there are 60 pages devoted to licensing master electricians and precisely 3 mentions of homeowners' permits...

Last edited by paredown; 06-13-2009 at 07:00 PM.
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