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Old 02-01-2010, 01:01 AM   #106
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This isn't the first time I've seen someone knocking handy boxes. What is so wrong with them?

Now I understand they are pretty small. Based on wire fill calculations, handy boxes seem limited to #14 wire, and require the wire terminates in the box (i.e. no room for a splice of any sort if the box has an outlet or switch in it).

But if your purpose is a single switch in a switch loop, or an outlet at the end of a branch, what's wrong with them?
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:41 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
This isn't the first time I've seen someone knocking handy boxes. What is so wrong with them?

Now I understand they are pretty small. Based on wire fill calculations, handy boxes seem limited to #14 wire, and require the wire terminates in the box (i.e. no room for a splice of any sort if the box has an outlet or switch in it).

But if your purpose is a single switch in a switch loop, or an outlet at the end of a branch, what's wrong with them?
I don't like them for receptacles but a switch loop is a good use for them.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:19 PM   #108
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Technically speaking, isn't that enforcing your own standard as opposed to enforcing code? After all, the code says "securely fastened", not "fastened in the standard way". By implication, that would mean you wouldn't allow for inovation, that there can't be any new way to do something.

Now as one of the previous posters argued: "Sure it secure today, but what about 5 years from now when the room has been exposed to several thermal cycles, is it going to still be secure then" (or words to that effect).

In other words, you shouldn't turn it down just because it's "not standard", because I don't think that is what code says or implys.

Now by contrast, if you want to say that some given method is "not proven", then you've left no room for argument... unless scientific studies can be referenced to prove to the contrary (which I can't in the case of J-B Weld).

Not making any arguement for or against J-B Weld with this post, just pointing out what might be a minor mistake of symantics. Basically, while "Standard" equals "Proven", that "Not Standard" does not equal "not proven".
Yes. But the AHJ (Authority having jurisdiction) has to operate solely by proven methods. I'm certain if someone were to "HOT-Weld" a box to a steel beam (where there are other, acceptable methods) the Inspector might look at them funny, but they'll approve of the method of fastening. An integral part of the electrical installing system is, that ONLY approved devices and methods are used.!
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:45 PM   #109
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Yes. But the AHJ (Authority having jurisdiction) has to operate solely by proven methods. I'm certain if someone were to "HOT-Weld" a box to a steel beam (where there are other, acceptable methods) the Inspector might look at them funny, but they'll approve of the method of fastening. An integral part of the electrical installing system is, that ONLY approved devices and methods are used.!
Finally!!! A post that really leaves me with the feeling the inspector very well might turn the J-B Weld down... and it's because of theses words...

"approved devices and methods"

Spark Plug, while you don't sight any specific NEC code, I can believe that those words are indeed in the code. From what little of code snippets I've read, that snippet even sounds like the kind of syntax the NEC uses.

Having reviewed the previous posts, I can see where some of the responses were sort-of implying what these words mean. But for the most part, the words that were being thrown around were "secure", "Workmanship", "CRAPTASTIC", and "non-standard". These words are either not in code or leave plenty of room for interpretation. Basically, they are not restrictive.

But the words "approved devices and methods" indicates that you ARE restricted to only use devices and methods that are on a list (real or implied).

From what I've seen of code, most of these sorts of lists are implied. By the lists being implied, that means they are not static, but are rather dynamic to allow for inovations that can prove themselves.


Thank you Spark Plug for an eye-openning response.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:17 PM   #110
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we told you that long ago.

now you are sounding like the guys I deal with on another site when I tell them something is illegal. It seems they will not accept it unless I provide code and section to prove it.


I told you long ago the inspector must approve of the method and he has the authority to approve or disapprove of the method.

if you want code section cite, it is: 110.2 and 110.3

NO, they do not have to be on a list nor do they have to be listed for the use by the manufacturer. It is fully within the AHJ to approve or disapprove of your method unless specifically listed for the use.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:44 PM   #111
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How many people have you had tell you this ?
Multiple people have been telling you from the beginning that this could be rejected quite easily under NEC code
I'm sorry that none of us knew the "magic words" that would make you understand this

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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
Aside from the need to mechanically fasten the box to the structure, I would think that any reputable inspector would turn that down for not being installed in a workmanlike manner. Being a redneck I agree that JB Weld is strong and might work fine, but as an inspector I'd never consider passing it

There are a multitude of options for mechanically attaching a box to red iron. Self tapping machine screws are available from sources such as Fastenall...They don't even need a pilot hole.
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workmanship/workmanlike manner of installation is right in any code book be it plumbing or electrical ,it has nothing to do with be a bureaucrat.it has everything to do with doing the job right!
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Originally Posted by Thurman View Post
Quite frankly, using "J-B Weld" to attach an electrical box of any type is poor quality workmanship. David
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I wonder if the inspector could just red tag for using a non listed adhesive product for fastening electrical boxes ...
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I will tell you that I do not believe it is an adequate means of attachment and I doubt any inspector I have worked with would see it as an adequate means of attachment.

that is because the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction aka inspector usually) has the ability to use his judgement if something is not clearly defined in the code. You have been told by a couple pro electricians and some very informed lay electricians and I believe every one of them has said it is not acceptable in their eyes.

never put in something you are ashamed of. Believe it or not, workmanship is legislated within the code. If you have some craptastic work, the inspector can tag it just because it looks craptastic
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There are accepted means of doing things & the NEC code dictates what is required

I have the feeling the Inspector I usually see here would not accept it
Mainly because it is not an accepted means of attachment
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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
Ok, I'll bite, although this thread is taking a purely argumentative turn. You asked for advice from professionals and experienced DIYers, you got it, yet you won't accept the advice you got. Sometimes it is better to say thanks and just agree to disagree than to continue to argue your case and beat a dead horse.

I'm an inspector. I'd turn it down based on the fact that it is not done in a workmanlike manner. Gluing (or JB Welding) electrical equipment is not an industry accepted practice for securing gear in place. Screws are. Why re-invent the wheel?
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It's a matter of workmanship and no electrician would jb weld an electrical box to a column post. Why the heck would he? In my experience JB weld is a temporary installation. It is unorthodox, not needed and just not done in your situation. You can do anything you want its your home. You asked us to tell you how a professional would mount the box, we told you but you have it in your head that jb weld just cannot be turned down because you can hang from it. What your failing to understand is you are doing something that is not likely to have been seen by the inspector or at least is not securing a box in a manner he will expect to see from an electrician. I've never seen it and I've been doing this stuff for awhile.

MY Commentary

The box is secure to the support post, however it is not a fastening means listed for electrical boxes and could over time come lose from the support due to being 'glued'. It is not a standard method or one you would expect to see from someone professional in the trade.


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Old 02-01-2010, 06:41 PM   #112
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It seems they will not accept it unless I provide code and section to prove it.
I'm a VERY logical thinker (yes you can replace that with the word "geek" if you like).

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Originally Posted by nap View Post
I told you long ago the inspector must approve of the method and he has the authority to approve or disapprove of the method.
I admitted that in hind-sight I can now see that. It's just that the logic of those words at the time seem to say "the inspector can decide what ever he wants", sort of like my argument about an inspector imposing his own code as opposed to interpreting code.

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NO, they do not have to be on a list nor do they have to be listed for the use by the manufacturer. It is fully within the AHJ to approve or disapprove of your method unless specifically listed for the use.
I said the "list" was "real or implied", I ment that what was "implied" is that the "list" is what ever the inspector wants it to be. In effect, the code creates the legal loophoop that allows an inspector to pass or fail items as he seems fit because is says that the item/method must be one that is "approved", yet generally doesn't list what is and is not approved.



In any case, I'm admitting that crow is on the menu for tonight. The inspector still might pass it, after all, J-B Weld COULD be on his approved list. But I am no longer certain to any degree that I would be willing to make a bet on it.

Thanks for all those that have stuck with this thread until a way could be found to make me understand.

Of course at this point, I CAN'T go and add a screw... we've got to leave the J-B Weld in place and see what the inspector will say when it's pointed out....
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:29 PM   #113
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Of course at this point, I CAN'T go and add a screw.......
Come on now....You could. You won't, but you could.

(For the record, crow can taste ok if you cook it right! I've eaten enough of it in my years in the industry)
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:55 AM   #114
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Come on now....You could. You won't, but you could.
I don't mean I can't out of stubberness. I mean I can't until we see how this drama plays out...

After all, I haven't given in 100% to the notion that the inspector WILL turn it down. I still believe with confidence that the box is "securly fastened". I just have no confidence the inspector will include it on HIS list of "approved methods".
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:31 PM   #115
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And just how many DIYers have a copy of the codes much less taken the time to read and attempt to understand all of it.

Not everyone is on every board. So obviously asking a question in multiple places gets before a wider audience. And frequently I ask a question one way and get answers that were not exactly what the question was trying to ask. So sometimes I try the question again and attempt to be clearing about what I'm asking. Case in point, that question about wiring a 4-way circuit had to be asked in THREE forums before someone give a valid answer (similer to this thread, many just try to answer with "no you can't do that" with out citing details to support their answer). As for the debates, isn't that what these forums are for when discussing different ideas and points of view? Just because someone has a minority opinion or interpretation doesn't mean it's wrong.

This is an attitude I see over and over across those many boards you refer to. I am completely clueless WHY someone who has spent years learning building codes would come to a forum designed for the typical home owner and get all pissed off when the home owners don't know all the codes.

As for your comment on "due diligence", you are out of line... unless your expectations are that everyone read every word in code books before asking a question
I have a copy of the 2005 NEC & do access NEC 2008 almost every day for review
The NEC 2005 was the best $100 I have ever spent
While I have not read every part of the NEC I have read quite a bit
Probably the 1st 3 chapters which deal with basic wiring & residential codes
Anyone doing anything beyond basic outlets/switches should have access to the codes
Anyone planning on doing work should research BEFORE doing that work & BEFORE asking questions
I knew how to run a sub-panel & what wire to use before I asked my 1st question years ago on another board before running my 1st sub
I posted to verify what I thought I knew & to validate my research

Many of the questions that are asked on this site by people over & over is easily found in a search of this site



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Old 02-02-2010, 07:36 PM   #116
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"And just how many DIYers have a copy of the codes much less taken the time to read and attempt to understand all of it."

Count one DIYer who has taken GREAT PAINS not only to read the code, but try and understand it too!

You have no reason not to do your homework on the code when it's available online for anyone.

It might be a clunky format, but inconvenience is no excuse for ignorance.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:40 PM   #117
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You have no reason not to do your homework on the code when it's available online for anyone.
No, that is incorrect. But building codes are copyrighted materials. They are not available to ANYONE online.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:42 PM   #118
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No, that is incorrect. But building codes are copyrighted materials. They are not available to ANYONE online.
Yes they ARE available online to ANYONE
That's where I access NEC 2008



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Old 02-02-2010, 07:48 PM   #119
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Yes they ARE available online to ANYONE
That's where I access NEC 2008
Care to post a link where I can read over the code?


BTW, given that you have the words "Extream DIY Homeowner" and you're a moderator in this forum... I think it is safe to say that you are NOT a "typical" homeowner.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:49 PM   #120
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The NEC 2005 was the best $100 I have ever spent
e
you got ripped man. I paid $51.


https://www.nfpa.org/catalog/service...%3Fid%3D7008SB
hooku, they are available from the copyright holder at the NFPA website

(please, let's stay away from the copyright argument)
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