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Old 01-28-2010, 02:15 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/wire-...-14-2-a-62784/

In this case, the plan was shot down with the claim that NEC doesn't allow you to seperate the hot and neutral (excluding switch loops).

While the hot and neutral are in the same sheath powering the lights, the hot comes form one end and the neutral from the other.
I will answer that question in that fourm.

Merci,Marc
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Old 01-28-2010, 02:33 AM   #77
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I posted in the other thread you linked to address this lights and switches
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:27 AM   #78
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I'm a scuba diver (never guess by my name here) & one part of scuba diving is DIR - Do It Right
It is also a part of DIY
There are accepted means of doing things & the NEC code dictates what is required
There are a lot of grey areas as in many cases there is more then one way to DIR

As Nap said, its up to the Inspector
But you are ignoring the advice of people who have been doing this for decades
I've only dealt with 3 Inspectors over 12 years - 2 houses
I have the feeling the Inspector I usually see here would not accept it
Mainly because it is not an accepted means of attachment



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Old 01-28-2010, 07:30 PM   #79
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HKDK - with no disrespect or sour grapes, let us know when you're planning on having this inspected and let us know the result.

Part of the reason that electrical is the best forum on DIYChatroom (we rock!) is that people pay attention and are interested in follow up. Can't tell you how many times that I've posted a question that people have asked how I made out later.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:45 PM   #80
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Well here's the update on the 4x4 boxes.

As I previously reported, when I put them to the test, they failed. I'm not sure why since the handy boxes held fine. The only difference I can think of is that I didn't do any surface prep with the handy boxes. Thinking later that might have been a mistake, I tried to sand the pole just a little where the 4x4s were going. I then wiped down the "dust" with a damp towel, and thought I dried the pole after.

In any case, when the boxes failed, the weld held firm to the boxes and pulled away from the pole, pulling the redish rust/paint layer with it, leaving a very smooth back surface matching the pole and showing any voids where there wasn't any weld.

As you've already guessed, I added some more weld to the back of them yesterday and reatached them.

Tonight, when I took off the clamps, I put my full body weight on them. My feet lifted off the step ladder. So we're talking each box withstood the weight of over 200 pounds.

So at this point, I can't wait to hear an inspector's explination why I do not have a "#1-SECURELY FASTEN OUTLET BOX IN POSITION & SUPPORT INDEPENDENT OF CONDUIT SYSTEM" with a strait face when I'm in front of him hanging from the j-box he is rejecting.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:00 PM   #81
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Easy - intended use
Be prepared to show him where JB-Weld is listed for use on an electric box

From their web-site:

Quote:
CONSTRUCTION
  • anchor bolts & screws
  • settling tile
  • pipe, conduit, electrical components




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Old 01-28-2010, 11:02 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leah Frances View Post
...let us know the result.
Oh, don't worry... I will... after all of this... I mean my goodness, we're up to six pages here. We CAN'T let this end without results.

However, I can't even estimate when an inspection will even occur. I don't even have the permit yet. I've been delaying because there are some parts of the plans I had not finished up until now (such as that "unorthodox sub-panal"). I spent tonight at Lowe's getting some prices together so that I can put my cost estimate together for the permit application. In the mean time, I've been doing some prep work. That's one reason I could stand to wait for things like the epoxy to dry... I'm not ready to pull wire yet.

I've been busy with other prep items as well, such as tracing wires in the basement. Most of that circuit has to be ripped out because a single 15 amp circuit provided all the lighting and outlets in this unfinished basement. There there's the bouncy floors. Our building used 2x8s on 12" centers for a 14'6" span... and YES, I said 2x8. There's several things I've seen around here (my house) that I don't know how it was allowed to pass inspection. So given what I've seen based on the work of "professionals", I think the inspector is going to be cutting a DIY some slack.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:06 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Easy - intended use
Be prepared to show him where JB-Weld is listed for use on an electric box
Either I'm confused... or you're now trying to support my efforts to get this J-B Weld install passed.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:08 PM   #84
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Both

It may be something he will ask for



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Old 01-28-2010, 11:35 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
So at this point, I can't wait to hear an inspector's explination why I do not have a "#1-SECURELY FASTEN OUTLET BOX IN POSITION & SUPPORT INDEPENDENT OF CONDUIT SYSTEM" with a strait face when I'm in front of him hanging from the j-box he is rejecting.
Ok, I'll bite, although this thread is taking a purely argumentative turn. You asked for advice from professionals and experienced DIYers, you got it, yet you won't accept the advice you got. Sometimes it is better to say thanks and just agree to disagree than to continue to argue your case and beat a dead horse.

I'm an inspector. I'd turn it down based on the fact that it is not done in a workmanlike manner. Gluing (or JB Welding) electrical equipment is not an industry accepted practice for securing gear in place. Screws are. Why re-invent the wheel? The fact that you can hang from it is great and would probably be amusing to watch, for the record.

Here's some pretty good advice for dealing with inspectors. If you do "odd" things, your work will get a lot more attention. If I see a box "glued" to a metal post I'm instantly going to assume that you're cutting corners in other places and you're deserving of a little extra time and effort on my part. If you argue my calls and cannot cite code to substantiate your argument, I'm not going to leave quicker because you're hard to deal with. I'm going to camp out and write every single code violation I see....Even the minor stuff. Inversely, if you whip out a code book and (professionally) show me where I'm mistaken then you're a-ok in my opinion.

You can draw two conclusions from that last paragraph:
1) I'm a jerk.
2) Striving to do perfect work that nobody will have any room to scrutinize of often easier in the end than taking shortcuts and then having to re-do the work.

If you prefer item #1 that's ok, but understand this...In most cases the inspector isn't out to get you. He's probably a nice guy that has a job to do. He doesn't get paid more for writing you up. I assure you that it is up to the contractor or homeowner to determine how I interact with them during an inspection. If you're dead-set on the idea that you're right, be prepared to substantiate that with code. Not opinion. Not demonstrations with your body weight. Since the code doesn't offer you much in this particular scenario, I'd be prepared with product listings for JB weld....Demonstrate with manufacturer spec sheets or independent test reports (ICC ES reports for example) that it is specifically listed and tested for securing electrical boxes to red iron (it isn't). Demonstrate hardship...Why can't you screw it to the post? If there were actually a good reason to choose JB Weld over a mechanical fastener I think it would be an easy sell. Unfortunately it is just too easy to run a self tapping machine screw in there with a drill/driver. You don't even need a pilot hole with the right screw.

Not trying to dive off into an even deeper argument with you, just giving you the perspective that the inspector might take.
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:03 AM   #86
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kctermite gives a nice summation of my experience with inspectors. And his signature sums it up nicely, too.

I would fail the jb-weld and I'm just the carpenter...
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:27 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
You asked for advice from professionals and experienced DIYers, you got it, yet you won't accept the advice you got
Just to get technical for a moment, I asked what the code says. I was told what the code says, and I was also given advice on how others interpret code.

As for J-B Weld being a short cut?
It has already been pointed out that J-B Weld cost more and takes longer. Not much of a short cut if you ask me.

As for discussions with the inspector, I really just have to explain myself the way I pretty much have been through this thread:
1. I was informed that code indicates conduit needed to be "SECURELY FASTEN", not necessarily "mechanically" fastened.
2. I decided to utilize a tool I was familiar with rather than experiment with drilling holes in a structural member of my house.
3. I reviewed the specification of J-B Weld and found nothing contrary to its use in this application. (I stated in my opening question that J-B Weld withstands temperatures to 600 degrees, it's electrically not conductive, strong, and I had already seen the info on their web site Scuba_Dave pointed out).
4. I put my idea to a rather extreme test (supporting my body weight) before deciding to proceed with wiring the conduit.

With that, I think the inspector will respect the reason for my decision, even if he decided to over-ride it; and NOT see it as a short cut indicative of shoddy workmanship.

Here, I don't seem to be getting any respect simply because my decision was contrary to what others think I should do.

Last edited by HooKooDooKu; 01-29-2010 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:32 AM   #88
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Ok, here's a funny one for you (or purhaps an eye-opener to just how fast things happen on the web).

If you Google "j-b weld conduit", this thread appears ahead of J-B Weld's own web site that list "conduit" for one of it's many uses.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:57 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu
So at this point, I can't wait to hear an inspector's explination why I do not have a "#1-SECURELY FASTEN OUTLET BOX IN POSITION & SUPPORT INDEPENDENT OF CONDUIT SYSTEM" with a strait face when I'm in front of him hanging from the j-box he is rejecting.
This tells me that you have decided that jb weld is securely fastened and an inspector cannot turn you down... if he does he is incorrect. All this exaggeration about hanging from the box determines securely fastened has me chuckling. It will get a chuckle from your inspector but I've never known a 'glued' on electrical box to a round support pole to ever pass but then I have never seen a professional jb weld a electrical box to anything.
The reality here is that whether it is passed or not passed no body dies from it. It's a matter of workmanship and no electrician would jb weld an electrical box to a column post. Why the heck would he? In my experience JB weld is a temporary installation. It is unorthodox, not needed and just not done in your situation. You can do anything you want its your home. You asked us to tell you how a professional would mount the box, we told you but you have it in your head that jb weld just cannot be turned down because you can hang from it. What your failing to understand is you are doing something that is not likely to have been seen by the inspector or at least is not securing a box in a manner he will expect to see from an electrician. I've never seen it and I've been doing this stuff for awhile.

MY Commentary

The box is secure to the support post, however it is not a fastening means listed for electrical boxes and could over time come lose from the support due to being 'glued'. It is not a standard method or one you would expect to see from someone professional in the trade.

It is something that you would expect or at least not be surprised to see from a homeowner.

It is not a violation that risks safety but will force a decision to be made whether jb weld constitues ' securely fastended '.

In my eyes it is not a fastening means that I would feel comfortable with if I was the inspector. I would lean towards a strong possibilty that the box will become separated from the metal post over time due to expanding and contracting of the metal post in response to temperature changes. I cannot assume that you have a good permanent bond to the post and you hanging from it would just get a chuckle out of me. You hanging from it just tells me it is secure for the moment but jb welding the box doesn't constitute an assurrrance it will still be bonded to the post a month from now.

The product 'Industro Weld' is listed to bond electrical componenets, conduit and pipe permanently to steel and many other materials. So what it will boil down to is if the inspector sees jb weld as an acceptable means to securely fasten the box to the post. Since an NEC definition for securely fastened in place has not been made it will all be on the inspectors shoulder to determine code compliance using JB weld.

If I was the inspector and this is a private dwelling work being done by the homeowner.. I would red tag.... Unless I was familair with JB weld as a commonly used method to securely fasten a metal electrical box to a metal post in your situation.
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Last edited by Stubbie; 01-29-2010 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 07:16 AM   #90
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KC & Stubbie are much better at expressing themselves then I am
I do agree with all their points

I'm reminded of that line in Jurassic park about scientists:
Quote:
so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
Many people have used a hammer to pound a screw in
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, or its the best method or an accepted method to do so



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