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Old 01-26-2010, 08:35 PM   #46
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I am glad you are thinking like that but what I actually was referring to was the fill in the conduit with NM. There are limitations for that as well.
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:47 PM   #47
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i was thinking about a 4 sq metal box with a single gang plaster ring/cover on the bottem so the box fill wouldnt be an issue on that end anyway,do you really want to try and stuff a 4w switch and all that wire in a handy box?
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:05 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
...

Ok, I just did some quick research that indicates a handy box is 13 cu.in. With four conductors, a ground, and a switch, that means the box is 1 cu. in. too small.
Hmmm, just got an idea how fill limits might still be met with the handy box... but time for a new question:
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/condu...99/#post389740
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plummen View Post
i was thinking about a 4 sq metal box with a single gang plaster ring/cover on the bottem so the box fill wouldnt be an issue on that end anyway,do you really want to try and stuff a 4w switch and all that wire in a handy box?
Because there (possibly) won't be any wire nuts in the box nor any Romex sheath, I don't think it will much of a "stuff". All four conductors will screw directly to the switch, so compared to a plastic box with Romex sheath thrown in, I think there will safely be plenty of room.

However, yeat another question on connecting the ground.
Rabbit Ears?

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/screw...01/#post389751

Last edited by HooKooDooKu; 01-26-2010 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Fix the link
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:17 PM   #50
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ground srew/wire bonded to box then to switch
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:00 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I am glad you are thinking like that but what I actually was referring to was the fill in the conduit with NM. There are limitations for that as well.
The way I understand it, short sleeves of conduit over NM used for physical protection do not have a fill limit.

Quote:
“Special Notes” Conduit fill does not apply to those pieces of conduit used only for a form of protection and is not a part of a complete conduit or tubing system. NEC Chapter 9 Notes to tables Note 2

“Special Notes” Conduit fill calculations are not intended to apply to short sections of conduit that are used only to protect exposed wires [such as Romex] from physical damage. Conduit fill calculations pertain only to certain wiring designed sections that is substantially conduit in design. NEC Chapter 9 Notes to tables Note 2

Last edited by Gigs; 01-27-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:18 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
The way I understand it, short sleeves of conduit over NM used for physical protection do not have a fill limit.

but he is not using it as a sleeve. He is using it as a raceway which is supported by the use of a connector when enterering the box. That is not a sleeve.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:24 PM   #53
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Quote:
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but he is not using it as a sleeve. He is using it as a raceway which is supported by the use of a connector when enterering the box. That is not a sleeve.
What's the difference between a sleeve and a raceway?

When I do a Google on "electrical raceway", I find references to those decrative covers you see to "hide" otherwise exposed wiring on the surface of a wall.

Otherwise, if I do just run NM cable through the condit (can I even get two 14/2 through a 1/2" conduit), couldn't you then call it a sleeve?

From what I'm hearing so far, this piece of conduit between the ceiling and the switch is a raceway if I use THHN wire, or a sleeve if I use NM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
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but he is not using it as a sleeve. He is using it as a raceway which is supported by the use of a connector when enterering the box. That is not a sleeve.
I'm not sure what you mean... if one end is open and it's short enough... it's a sleeve.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyunelan2 View Post
... $ Self taping screws < $ JB Weld.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
Experience with JB Weld > Experience with Self taping screws. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
... Tek screws= proffesionalism ...
When I mentioned this thread to my wife and these equations and that the general consensus was that J-B Weld wouldn't look proffesional, she shot back...

"But you're not a professional".
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:03 PM   #56
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HKDK - you listen to your wife?!?
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:53 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
When I mentioned this thread to my wife and these equations and that the general consensus was that J-B Weld wouldn't look proffesional, she shot back...

"But you're not a professional".
that's is funny.

the definition you might find in any place not in direct association with the NEC would be irrelevant.

but did you include the JBWeld= craptastic?

I would live to hear her response to that one.

Last edited by nap; 01-27-2010 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:09 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
I'm not sure what you mean... if one end is open and it's short enough... it's a sleeve.
yes BUT.


so, as long as he can comply 334.30, see no problem with the situation.

so, does the installation allow compliance with 334.30?
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:00 PM   #59
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I compare sleeves to raceways like tomatoes to tomatos and potatoes to potatos ...

I think the closest answer to this question lies when we couple NEC 300.12 and exception 1 with Note 2 chapter 9.

300.12 says all raceways metal or non metallic, cable armors, and cable sheaths must be continuous between cabinets, boxes, fittings or other enclosures or outlets.

Then an exception is made for raceways.

Exception 1 ... short sections of raceways used to provide support or protection of cable assemblies from physical damage shall not be required to be mechanically continuous.

Note 2 chapter 9

Table 1 applies only to complete conduit or tubing systems and is not intended to apply to sections of conduit or tubing used to protect exposed wiring from physical damage.

An example where conduit fill according to table 1 is not required would be if I come above grade with a run of direct buried uf-b to an outside mounted electrical box or panel. I am required to protect that uf-b not deeper than 18" below grade all the way to the box or panel. So it is a short section of raceway connected to a box at one end and open at the other. I am also required to install a bushing on the open end to protect from abrasion of the uf-b cable where it enters the conduit. Whether you want to call that a sleeve or not is up to you ... the NEC doesn't define it. Sleeve of raceway and short section of raceway IMO are the same thing. One or both ends must be open and not connected at both ends to a device box or other enclosure. Unless the raceway is complete as defined in 300.12 it is not a conduit system but a sleeve or short section of raceway whether or not it connects to a receptacle box at one end is irrelevant IMO. It is not subject to table 1. The only exception I can think of is where a max. 10 foot section of rigid raceway is allowed to enter the top of a surface mounted panelboard. In that situation the raceway must be sealed at the open end the cables must be fastened within 12" of where they emerge from the open end of the conduit and conduit fill is required. This is allowed only if the raceway does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

So IMO the code supports a short section of emt (sleeve) down the side of a basement wall to a electrical box and connected to that box but open at the other end as not subject to fill requirements of table 1. It must be used for the physical protection of the nm cable and installed in accordance with code requirements for a anti abrasion bushing at the point the nm enters the section of emt. The emt and electrical box must be supported properly against the wall. This meets the requirements of 300.12 and note 2 of chapter 9.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.....

BTW ... JB WELD to fasten a metal box to that post is "CRAPTASTIC" ...... Might as well use a hose clamp on the emt too.....

You do need a nice powerful drill for thick metal using tech screws.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:12 PM   #60
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Stubbs - thanks for bringing some clarity! Want to weigh-in on the other discussion about rabbit ears?
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