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Old 06-29-2009, 05:42 PM   #1
 
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Help??? 60 amp sub panel installation Problem


Guys,

I have a licensed contractor who is installing an outdoor kitchen at my house. (Houston Texas)

They are licensed, bonded, insured, and a reputable outfit.....so they are not fly by nighters.

So, Here is the question..

Can a 60 amp single pole breaker installed into main panel be used to feed a 60 amp sub-panel?

Creating a 60 amp single pole main breaker within the sub-panel at my outdoor kitchen.

For the Sub-feed, they used 6-2 wire (1 blk, 1 wht, and 1 grd), and ran it in grey plastic conduit about 40 feet and into the outdoor kitchen structure (up through the concrete foundation).

I am not an electrician.....more of a DIY'er

But, I am not completely electrical ignorant either,

I just cannot figure out why they didn't run a 6-3 wire so that a 2 pole 60 amp breaker could be used on both ends.

Unless it was to save money on the difference between 6-3 and the 6-2 wire installed....

Is anyone familiar with an installation of this nature?

Is this right?

Skip
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:47 PM   #2
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What type of wire was ran? NM-B or UF? Is this an electrical contractor or a general contractor? You're right. it sounds like they don't know what they're doing. Is this project being inspected?

Last edited by jerryh3; 06-29-2009 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:50 PM   #3
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Code requires 4 wires.Two hot,one neutral, and a ground.In the sub panel neutrals and ground have to be seperated.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:56 PM   #4
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Sorry, this aint kosher. WAY too many red flags.


1) I've never seen a single pole 60 amp breaker.

2) Iv'e never seen a single pole sub panel.

3) Check the marking on the cable. If it's NM, that alone will shut the project down.

Take some pics and we will pick it apart and you can bust him.

I am guessing that he is using a 2 pole 60 which at the bare minimum would require a 4wire circuit.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
They are licensed, bonded, insured, and a reputable outfit.....so they are not fly by nighters.
And...this means NOTHING.

They OFTEN sub the electrical out to the lowest bidder. I see it ALL the time.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
Sorry, this aint kosher. WAY too many red flags.


1) I've never seen a single pole 60 amp breaker.

2) Iv'e never seen a single pole sub panel.

3) Check the marking on the cable. If it's NM, that alone will shut the project down.

Take some pics and we will pick it apart and you can bust him.

I am guessing that he is using a 2 pole 60 which at the bare minimum would require a 4wire circuit.
Or, they may using the optional ungrounded, ungrounded, bare grounded/grounding method. Popular with many Craigslist's electricians.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post

1) I've never seen a single pole 60 amp breaker.
Here ya go:

http://www.baybreakersonline.com/squ...duct_info.html
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:01 PM   #8
 
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I do not know if the elecricians are sub's or not.

The outfit is doing a beautiful job on my kitchen, but I just don't like what i am seeing on the electrical

The sub-panel used is a siemens 70 amp 2-pole breaker panel.

The single pole 60 amp breaker installed is a siemens B160, type B.

is it possible they used a single due to breaker space limitations?

My panel is extremely full........jut asking?

Skip

i will take some pics......
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:16 PM   #9
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I wasn't aware it was required by code that a sub-panel be a 240v panel.
Can anyone list the specific code?
I'd never do it myself, but have heard of 120v only panels
Is there anything off this panel that will use 240v?
Is the 6-2 wire rated for wet use?
Is the panel on the wall of the house, or away from the house?

Not the installation I'd want



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Old 06-29-2009, 09:32 PM   #10
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Is there a 120V panel? Probably.

Could he use one half of a 240V panel? Probably

Could he feed both legs of a 240V panel with one phase? Probably

The question is.....why?

It would be easier/cheaper to do it right.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:00 AM   #11
 
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The 120v power within this outdoor kitchen will power a viking mini fridge, a viking ice maker, 2 outlets, and 2 sets of flood lights.....all 120v.

three 20 amp circuits..........thats all.

The sub-panel they have installed is located within my new outdoor kitchen (within an exterior wall)

The 6-2 does appear to be rated for exterior use......judging from the rubber sheathing they stripped off of it.

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Old 06-30-2009, 02:07 AM   #12
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Reading this and your other thread http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/1-pol...breaker-47767/, It sounds like it's acceptable from a technical and safety standpoint, but they did a real disservice not offering to switch one of your other breakers out for a tandem, and not offering to run a 3 wire (+ ground) feed. If you wanted to add, say, an electric cooktop in the future, the 120v sub would be very limiting. I'd see how much it is for them to use a 6-3 instead, and have that installed.

We can probably help you install a tandem breaker to free up room for the double-pole 60, or the electrician can do it in less than 5 minutes (but will probably bill a flat rate, so this could be good DIY savings opportunity). Just need a picture or two of the main panel.

On the other hand, if you're pretty sure you'll never want a 240 volt appliance out there, what they're installing sounds safe, if unusual, so you could just let it be.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipdigler View Post
Guys,
I just cannot figure out why they didn't run a 6-3 wire so that a 2 pole 60 amp breaker could be used on both end
Thats what they should have done. That is what I would make them do. A kitchen with only 120 volts available? It must not be much of a kitchen. No range, water heater etc.....makes no sense to me.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
I just cannot figure out why they didn't run a 6-3 wire so that a 2 pole 60 amp breaker could be used on both end
Or a 10/3 on a 30.

Read the markings on the stripped off sheath.
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:14 PM   #15
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Hate to ask the obvious, but why was UF cable run through 40 feet of PVC conduit? Should have used individual conductors rated for the wet location.

It seem it would be pretty easy to remove the UF and add the proper individual conductors and upgrade to a 120/240 panel
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